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View Poll Results: Which support system for your post privatised school?

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  • Charity

    3 8.82%
  • Corporate

    10 29.41%
  • Religious

    7 20.59%
  • I don't know/I love government control of education

    14 41.18%
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  1. #101
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Are you sure these cases aren't just exceptions to the rule? I'm glad to hear about a black high school outperforming a white one, but for the most part, I don't think that's the case...I've heard too many news stories about black under performing....some black high schools have 50% drop out rates.
    But is that because of funding, socioeconomic influences, cultural inequity?

    Let's put it this way: If I lived in the 'hood with a crack whore for a mother and had no clue who my father was, and my grandmother was dead because my grandfather beat her to death (and he was on death row), do you think I might have different educational expectations (or a different emphasis placed on my academic achievement) than if I came from a middle class family with two parents (not necessarily together, but at least two parents who were both out of prison and drug-free) living in a suburb?

    If mom's a crack ho, she's going to probably pay less attention to my grades than mom would if she were a middle class woman without a drug habit to feed. Even if I were equally bright, regardless of my socioeconomic standing, I'm pretty sure that I'd suffer if I lived in the hood.

    (Unless, of course, there was extra credit offered for knowing how to build a meth lab. :P)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Are you sure these cases aren't just exceptions to the rule? I'm glad to hear about a black high school outperforming a white one, but for the most part, I don't think that's the case...I've heard too many news stories about black under performing....some black high schools have 50% drop out rates.
    Shouldn't we go with the rule with the fewest exceptions? That would be better schools= better students.

    Even if your rule is the correct one, I don't see it as being in any way beneficial to black people. Why should we send a message that essentially says "Give up. You're fucked because of the color of your skin and/or background", when there are many clear examples of black people who succeeded despite race or class. I can't see any other point to the philosophy than as an attempt to infantilize an entire group to advance the Democrat agenda.
    I don't wanna!

  3. #103
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Shouldn't we go with the rule with the fewest exceptions? That would be better schools = better students.
    It's time to get liberal with the facts.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #104
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    You know we fund the government right?
    You know that education has a significant positive externality right? In other words it's in all of our best interest to provide education for those who couldn't normally afford it.

    Merc has it right. A federal or state government is not going to be effective at administering education like a local government would be. However I still want that funding. We'd be better off if they provided funding while leaving most of the decisions up to local govenments.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  5. #105
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm with whoever spoke up in favor of charters. Right now a fair number of them do suck, but they tend not to last long. The good ones are REALLY good and they tend to attract a lot of students from the surrounding districts. They are able to accept funding from the gov't, and of course they have to acknowledge the NC Standard Course of Study (or whatever the curriculum is called in other states) but there is an impressive amount of autonomy in the classroom. If teacher hires are solid then autonomy in the classroom won't be a problem.

    PS Homeschooling certainly CAN result in a poorly socialized child, but it's not necessary by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is public school necessarily about getting roughed up and having your lunch money stolen.

    In the interests of full disclosure I was public schooled 'til 6th grade, private schooled from 6-9th, and homeschooled for high school so I've done it all. It can all be great and it can all be awful.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #106
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Merc has it right. A federal or state government is not going to be effective at administering education like a local government would be. However I still want that funding. We'd be better off if they provided funding while leaving most of the decisions up to local govenments.
    You realize that this is not a reasonable expectation, don't you? If a local school doesn't do what the state or federal government wants, they can withhold funding. As long as funding comes from government sources outside the local community, government will have the ability to exert pressure on that community. That said, state control is superior to federal. The feds just aren't capable of developing many policies that should be applied ubiquitously. It's an unfortunate reality for those who favor centralized government control.

    I'd suggest reading Economic Facts and Fallacies, by Thomas Sowell. He discusses this issue. He counters the popular perception that, before there was centralized control in education, more children were getting an education. The government doesn't want to admit that their policies have failed (and failed conclusively), so they purposely lead people to believe that before their involvement, that only the rich could afford education, that the masses were a bunch of bumbling idiots. That is simply not the case. Before government involvement, the US was leading the world in access to education.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #107
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm with whoever spoke up in favor of charters. Right now a fair number of them do suck, but they tend not to last long. The good ones are REALLY good and they tend to attract a lot of students from the surrounding districts.
    This is EXACTLY how it should work. If you suck at education, you shouldn't be educating.

    They are able to accept funding from the gov't, and of course they have to acknowledge the NC Standard Course of Study (or whatever the curriculum is called in other states) but there is an impressive amount of autonomy in the classroom. If teacher hires are solid then autonomy in the classroom won't be a problem.
    That's unfortunate. While they might not receive government pressure, right now, the possibility exists, and it will eventually be exercised.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #108
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I really wish we had charters in my area.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #109
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    You know that education has a significant positive externality right?
    There are very specific circumstances where education has positive externalities, and many others where it does not. There is a great deal which is done and taught in public schools which will have no benefits for those who pay the cost, and in some circumstances an education system can have negative externalities--education can very easily become indocrination (that is one of the common complaints about religious schools). The fact that the current public education system might bring positive externalities is not relevent, since so would any alternative system, and with fewer costs. In any case, people who tend to their gardens produce a positive externality, because it makes the experience of walking around town more pleasurable, but I do not think that people who tend to their gardens have any claim to the money of taxpayers.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #110
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'd suggest reading Economic Facts and Fallacies, by Thomas Sowell.
    +1 from me. I'd suggest reading any Sowell, really.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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