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  1. #21
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Any religion or ideology that does not respect individual rights should be mocked and ridiculed. I see Islam and Nazism in the same light; both are practiced by people who think their way is superior and will use force and murder to achieve their ends. The fact is that muslims are a million times more violent that the Amish, the Quakers, the Mormons, the Wiccans, and Scientologists. The fact that the vast majority of muslims aren't violent fanatics really doesn't change this fact one bit. If your faith produces so many rapists and murderers (compared to other faiths), then it's probably time to find a new faith. Stop excusing stupid behavior.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Hmm, this was an interesting review to read thanks!

    Yeah, I also agree that it's difficult for people convinced that only their faith is "true" to find common ground. To understand others, I feel it's necessary to keep an open mind. I myself may struggle to keep an open mind when it comes to discussions like this, but it helps to remind myself every day.
    Guys, I know its going to come as a shock but its possible to be open minded while knowing that there remains such a thing as truth, I'm pretty open minded about driving for instance, I know its possible to drive in all sorts of different ways but I know equally that there's a single correct way of driving on the road which is shared by other road users, you see?

    See what you are engaging in there is already an oppressive means of "othering", by describing and labelling and making attributions about parties, the "other" in this sense, which are less than flattering, ie "close minded", "unable to find common ground".

    I hate to be critical because people are inclined to see it as hostility, a bannable offense now, or interpret it as a personal attack or personal challenge of some kind. Really its just a response to something I see too much of and which is a disappointing reminder of how little people have thought about these things, ie how much distance I feel between myself and the average person choosing to discuss anything.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Any religion or ideology that does not respect individual rights should be mocked and ridiculed. I see Islam and Nazism in the same light; both are practiced by people who think their way is superior and will use force and murder to achieve their ends. The fact is that muslims are a million times more violent that the Amish, the Quakers, the Mormons, the Wiccans, and Scientologists. The fact that the vast majority of muslims aren't violent fanatics really doesn't change this fact one bit. If your faith produces so many rapists and murderers (compared to other faiths), then it's probably time to find a new faith. Stop excusing stupid behavior.
    I know plenty of people who express the same views about Roman Catholicism and pride themselves on being examples of the most tolerant and open minded beings around.

    Faith isnt like commodities at the store, games publishers or petrol at the pump, you hear something shady reported and you decide to shop elsewhere or buy a different brand.

    I hate the extent to which market values and consumerism have infiltrated everything any how ignorant everyone seems to be of it happening.

  4. #24
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Any religion or ideology that does not respect individual rights should be mocked and ridiculed.
    While I completely agree with this. In practice, it doesn't always work. Usually, it just angers the other party which is usually unproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I see Islam and Nazism in the same light; both are practiced by people who think their way is superior and will use force and murder to achieve their ends. The fact is that muslims are a million times more violent that the Amish, the Quakers, the Mormons, the Wiccans, and Scientologists. The fact that the vast majority of muslims aren't violent fanatics really doesn't change this fact one bit
    This is too much of a leap. It's really unfair to compare the two to each other. If just for the fact that one is a religion and the other is a political view. Nazism was significant more organized, and the amount of individuals in the party shared the extremism involved, compared to those of Islam that have no problem. You end up lumping a significant number of fair minded individuals in with a group that is morally reprehensible, and it's actually very offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    If your faith produces so many rapists and murderers (compared to other faiths), then it's probably time to find a new faith. Stop excusing stupid behavior.
    While logical, this almost never works in practice, and to the person involved, it's simply not how religion works. One can't simply say "well, because a number of people in my faith are disgusting harmful people to the world, my faith therefore must be wrong and I must change my faith". Uprooting faith is not easy, almost always undesirable, and when it does happen it happens almost always by incident, not by choice. In fact, it's far far more common that when one person changes their faith they're fighting against themselves changing, but are unable to stop. Faith isn't something you simply buy sell and return.
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  5. #25
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    It's really unfair to compare the two to each other.
    Let's see. Both want to kill Jews and both want to kill gay people. Both want to conquer territory by force.

    Muslim leader in Britain wants gays executed

    According to Abdul Qadeer Baksh, an English muslim leader, all gays should be executed. In fact, according to Baksh, "every moderate Muslim holds this view as well."
    I think you'd be shocked at the number of "moderate" or fair minded muslims who share this view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    While logical, this almost never works in practice, and to the person involved, it's simply not how religion works.
    I'm not that naive. I don't expect muslims to recognize the faults of their faith and change religions. I do think it's wise to restrict immigration from muslim countries because Islam is incompatible with societies that respect individual rights such as ours.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #26
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Let's see. Both want to kill Jews and both want to kill gay people. Both want to conquer territory by force.

    Muslim leader in Britain wants gays executed

    I think you'd be shocked at the number of "moderate" or fair minded muslims who share this view.

    I'm not that naive. I don't expect muslims to recognize the faults of their faith and change religions. I do think it's wise to restrict immigration from muslim countries because Islam is incompatible with societies that respect individual rights such as ours.
    The different is want and did. Wants and desires do not always come to actuality, and I see it as a near impossibility to come to pass at the scale that Nazism did the past. I will repeat: You end up lumping a significant number of fair minded individuals in with a group that is morally reprehensible, and it's actually very offensive. What you quoted is a single person making a single statement. It hardly backs it up. Further, those are just thoughts. I don't want this to sound like I am justifying it, I'm not. As I said before I actually wish Islam would be deleted from the world and human consciousness. That's just a thought of mine though, and I recognize that it's completely unfair.
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  7. #27
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    I will repeat: You end up lumping a significant number of fair minded individuals in with a group that is morally reprehensible, and it's actually very offensive.
    I already stated that the vast majority of muslims aren't violent fanatics, but it's still a fact that this religion disproportionately produces terrorists, rapists, and murderers. I'm sure the vast majority of Nazis weren't genocidal maniacs either, but this is still not an ideology that we should invite into our lands. Here's some perspective on actual numbers of muslims who believe in certain things:

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
    62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)

    al-Jazeera (2006): 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden
    54% of Muslim Nigerians Support Osama bin Laden
    Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially")

    Muslim Opinion Polls
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #28
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I already stated that the vast majority of muslims aren't violent fanatics, but it's still a fact that this religion disproportionately produces terrorists, rapists, and murderers. I'm sure the vast majority of Nazis weren't genocidal maniacs either, but this is still not an ideology that we should invite into our lands. Here's some perspective on actual numbers of muslims who believe in certain things:

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
    62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)

    al-Jazeera (2006): 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden
    54% of Muslim Nigerians Support Osama bin Laden
    Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially")

    Muslim Opinion Polls
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it fit or fair to compare the two.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Maybe a politically correct socialist society is that way and maybe its something indomitable like China, what do you think?

    The fascist vibe is so 1940s.
    China hasn't lost its values regarding obedience to the collective will, it has developed them into a political system.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    China hasn't lost its values regarding obedience to the collective will, it has developed them into a political system.
    I dont like those sorts of values to be honest, if mankind ever was a herd animal its surely not its destiny.

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