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  1. #21
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    Fascinating.
    I am glad you found it fascinating. For consciousness is the one thing we don't understand, yet this rich book gives us a totally fascinating hypothesis about the origin of consciousness.

    Like you, many of us are fascinated by Julian's book and have formed The Julian Jaynes' Society, just click on Julian Jaynes Society | Exploring Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind Theory Since 1997

    @Evee

  2. #22
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Sounds reasonable to me.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's a controversial book Mole, it's a possibility but not fact. I do find it interesting though in yoga they teach you that the higher self is actually the watcher, not all that chattering that goes on, repeating parental criticisms or making grocery lists. In essence, the total opposite (he posits the higher self was an unconscious chattering mind not the watcher).

    I think it's interesting that he attempts to say early man was similar to a schizophrenic, does that mean he also thinks this is how mammalian brains work in the animal kingdom? And how about the possibility that the voice of God wasn't similar to schizophrenia, but more like Ni flashes of insight.

    Be still and know that I am God. It's the clearing of the mind, the quietness. Listening to nature. Etc.
    Yes, dear Marmotini, there are quite a few myths about Julian Jaynes and his book, The Origin of Consciousness.

    To read the myths click on Myths vs. Facts about Julian Jaynes Theory on the Origin of Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind by Marcel Kuijsten | Julian Jaynes Society

    It's such a rich book, a tour de force, that deals with so much and ties it all together, that it is ripe for misunderstanding and myths.

    I like the book because it tickles my brain.

    @Marmotini @Evee
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think its highly reductive to look upon religion as ideology in that way, although it doesnt surprise me, it was the aim of may secularists within the socialist movement to reinvent religion, Christianity without God, and I think its reflected in the Johnny Cash song which has the lyric "they say they want the kingdom but they dont want God in it".

    Its also not surprising since for a very long time, consciously and, more often, unconsciously, religion has been "commodified" or reconfigured as utilitarian for the individual or, more accurately described, consumer or only possessing value in so far as it is ulitarian or serves peoples needs or corresponds to and arises from human needs. Voltaire prefigures it all when he says that if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent God, the same could be said of religion or religious belief because those things are considered interchangeable at the time.

    I think its all hugely mistaken, ethics and morality are important aspects of religion but they are possible to consider quite apart from religion, in some ways I think they ought to be, religion being a matter of private conscience and personal discipline which can not provide a social organising principle for everyone believer and non-believer alike, that's not to say I would not recommend it to all but I know I fall short and that others no doubt would too or wouldnt even want to be subject to that kind of measure in the first place for reasons of their own. There are UK athiests who curse the spread of Hebrew or Christian religion and think that the pre-Christian Greek or Roman philosophical schools of thought were and are superior and should have spread instead for the benefit of mankind, judged by their actual lights I would be wholly in agreement with them, although, as I say, that would be judged by their lights, which are not my own.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Studmuffin23's Avatar
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    Religion was not "invented" as a tool of social organization. In fact, it was not "invented" as anything. Human beings arrived at religion as the only sensible explanation of their extreme self-awareness, which it still remains today.

  6. #26
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    When we could all hear the voice of God, there was no question of God's existence, it was evident to our senses and taken for granted.

  7. #27
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    ... hmm... maybe widespread organized religion... I've read in quite a few places that the easiest form of social control, the ability to get people to look at things from a more societal viewpoint than than an individualistic viewpoint, is to get them to believe that it is the will of a greater power... a power, that if displeased, could cause terrible things (i.e. a flood, locusts, plague, drought...) to occur

    the earliest manifestations of religion that have been found, however, are gods and goddesses of things that were once important to everyday survival... someone who could be petitioned for safe in the darkness, for luck in the hunt, for many children and a safe pregnancy and for rain. it's funny that these types of things seem to be almost inborn in humanity... a desire to find some form of assistance in one's daily concerns and someone to blame and fear if things go wrong... someone to petition out of hope and desperation when there is no other source to turn towards. a hope for controlling the things that are out of one's hands

    organized religions, with their commandments to respect and help others, didn't really come about until people started to live in larger groups that were harder to control. groups where it wasn't just family...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahbob View Post
    It was created as a method for controlling society by the upper class. Christianity just happens to teach decent values when it's not in the hands of psychopaths. Islam is completely the opposite, it teaches cruelty, violence, hatred, brutality, domination, and sadism. Both these religions fulfill the need of ideological control which is being taken over by the TV and internet these days. Only some religions are concerned with regulating genuinely bad behavior, and, even then, only in the hands of someone who has a sincere desire for that. All religions are about control.
    The Bible has just as many oppressive and bloodthirsty verses as the Quran, while the Quran holds just as many virtuous verses as the Bible. The Quran is just shorter and harder to see your own ideas reflected in it.
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