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  1. #11
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You can actually get a form of CBT especially tailored to Christians or Muslims, as well as Buddhists and Taoist and garden variety atheists. I suspect the developers of CBT to be Jungian rather than Freudian in their approach, they saw the underlying major themes in most world religion.

    Which indeed makes a sound basis for belief in a rational higher power, no matter what you call it. How did so many people come to similar conclusions?
    I would like to try it out. I'd like to be an amateur Christian therapist. And see how it goes. If anyone wants free therapy, hit me up.
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  2. #12
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    As I see it, religion is a consequence of being human. It sort of happens by accident from survival and societal instincts from the need to extrapolate/predict what is unseen/unknown. Some will be more predisposed to it than others.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I would like to try it out. I'd like to be an amateur Christian therapist. And see how it goes. If anyone wants free therapy, hit me up.
    cool, how INFJ of you! CBT in all forms emphasizes things like focusing on positives rather than negatives (being thankful) and to stop catastrophic thinking (like having faith) ...it also emphasizes setting goals and taking action (responsibility for ones own choices). I have encountered people who don't like it, because they did not like some one telling them to consciously re direct their energy and to stop dwelling in negativity and self pity.This goes back to you being your own best therapist though. I have no idea how anyone can help someone who doesn't want to help themselves, no matter what the problem is.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Religion is very, very old and predates control by the cerebral cortex.

    At first we were controlled by the voice of God heard through the bicameral mind.

    But as consciousness arose the bicameral mind started to break down and we could no longer hear the voice of God and had to rely on the critical faculties of the cerebral cortex.

    So to discover the origin of religion click on http://selfdefinition.org/psychology...meral-Mind.pdf
    Fascinating.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Religion is very, very old and predates control by the cerebral cortex.

    At first we were controlled by the voice of God heard through the bicameral mind.

    But as consciousness arose the bicameral mind started to break down and we could no longer hear the voice of God and had to rely on the critical faculties of the cerebral cortex.

    So to discover the origin of religion click on http://selfdefinition.org/psychology...meral-Mind.pdf
    That's a controversial book Mole, it's a possibility but not fact. I do find it interesting though in yoga they teach you that the higher self is actually the watcher, not all that chattering that goes on, repeating parental criticisms or making grocery lists. In essence, the total opposite (he posits the higher self was an unconscious chattering mind not the watcher).

    I think it's interesting that he attempts to say early man was similar to a schizophrenic, does that mean he also thinks this is how mammalian brains work in the animal kingdom? And how about the possibility that the voice of God wasn't similar to schizophrenia, but more like Ni flashes of insight.

    Be still and know that I am God. It's the clearing of the mind, the quietness. Listening to nature. Etc.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    As I see it, religion is a consequence of being human. It sort of happens by accident from survival and societal instincts from the need to extrapolate/predict what is unseen/unknown. Some will be more predisposed to it than others.
    I'm pretty much in agreement with this. Even in modern society survival is still tenuous. I have no proof that I will still exist next Tuesday. Any number of things could happen to me between now and then, and lets face it, why not me because someone dies every single day. So the mind tends to latch onto the future and convince itself that the future is assured. We develop a kind of optimistic delusion about our certainty of living to believe anything else is quite frankly paralysing.

    This kind of faith is necessary to wake up everyday, go in search of food (however it is you do that) and then meet the challenges of the day. Without it, you get paranoid about the possibility of your own demise and possibly will never leave your house again. But once that has been established and you believe you will live to see another day the problem still remains....awful things happen to people for no apparent reason. It then becomes necessary to placate the fear complex again and believe in something, anything so you can not dwell on this hideous possibility. I guess a rudimentary morality system helps deal with the rising fear of being murdered, robbed, maimed, etc. If you believe that others are also adhering to this set of beliefs then you can be deluded that it will never happen to you.

    From that position I can completely understand xenophobia as well. Who wouldn't be worried about meeting someone who may have completely different ideas about what's right and whats wrong and act accordingly.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's a controversial book Mole, it's a possibility but not fact.

    I think it's interesting that he attempts to say early man was similar to a schizophrenic,
    My big caveat with that particular body of work is actually his assertion for the proof of it, ie that schizophrenia is a remnant of this type of mind. He posits that the right hemisphere when acting independantly of the left comes across as auditory hallucinations. But what about all those people that had their left and right hemisphere's surgically seperated as a treatment for seizures. They didn't end up with the results he theorises, auditory hallucinations. Instead they ended up with ambulatory problems as they could no longer co-ordinate movements on both sides of their bodies directly.

    That was just the first objection I had to the overall theory. The others I harbour rest with interpreting ancient writings literally and using that as evidence that bicameral societies existed. There is no way to know what context those writings were laid down in. Just as there is no way to know exactly what ancient life was like. It's a plausible theory but just a theory all the same.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    I'm pretty much in agreement with this. Even in modern society survival is still tenuous. I have no proof that I will still exist next Tuesday. Any number of things could happen to me between now and then, and lets face it, why not me because someone dies every single day. So the mind tends to latch onto the future and convince itself that the future is assured. We develop a kind of optimistic delusion about our certainty of living to believe anything else is quite frankly paralysing.

    This kind of faith is necessary to wake up everyday, go in search of food (however it is you do that) and then meet the challenges of the day. Without it, you get paranoid about the possibility of your own demise and possibly will never leave your house again. But once that has been established and you believe you will live to see another day the problem still remains....awful things happen to people for no apparent reason. It then becomes necessary to placate the fear complex again and believe in something, anything so you can not dwell on this hideous possibility. I guess a rudimentary morality system helps deal with the rising fear of being murdered, robbed, maimed, etc. If you believe that others are also adhering to this set of beliefs then you can be deluded that it will never happen to you.

    From that position I can completely understand xenophobia as well. Who wouldn't be worried about meeting someone who may have completely different ideas about what's right and whats wrong and act accordingly.
    Nonsense, plenty of atheists go out and do stuff every day perfectly fine. There is no deity and it's easy to live with that. It's not easy to live with the followers of deities because they'll do all sorts of horrendous things to you in the name of their deity. Religion really has more to do with social cohesion than individual morality. At the drop of a hat religious people torture, rape, murder, and pillage if they believe it is sanctioned by their religious leaders - same goes for extreme nationalists. The only thing religion provides is a strong tribal unit which a large group can work together with. Sometimes these groups are benevolent, other times they are ruthlessly amoral, killing, stealing, and raping - as long as the people they're doing it to aren't a part of their group.

    Think of Salem, the members of the community turned against their own people and started torturing them and executing them by the dozens. None of these people had done anything wrong other than have a religious leader point a finger at them. Their property was seized and turned over to the religious leaders who were torturing and murdering them. Sure, religion helps some people get along sometimes, but no more or less than any other ideological system.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahbob View Post
    Nonsense, plenty of atheists go out and do stuff every day perfectly fine.
    Yes I know this I am one of them. I'm not talking about the existence of deity, this thread is about using religious doctrine as a social system for stability. Hence the reason why I have purposefully not started a discussion about any particular religion because that would be missing the point. I'm talking about the human minds need for a sense of certainty and stability in an uncertain world not a belief in deity. This was covered in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahbob View Post
    Religion really has more to do with social cohesion than individual morality.
    Yes that is exactly what I put forth in the OP.

  10. #20
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    Yes I know this I am one of them. I'm not talking about the existence of deity, this thread is about using religious doctrine as a social system for stability. Hence the reason why I have purposefully not started a discussion about any particular religion because that would be missing the point. I'm talking about the human minds need for a sense of certainty and stability in an uncertain world not a belief in deity. This was covered in the OP.



    Yes that is exactly what I put forth in the OP.
    You stated that you believe that religion counteracts the "baser instincts" when that may be true in some cases, in the United States, for example, we see quite the opposite. Religious people are more prone to believe in torture, believe in greed, believe in materialism - than non-believers. So it really matters who is holding the reigns of the religion and how loved by the people that person is.

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