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  1. #31
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    If a person doesn't want happiness, what do they want, and what would be the result of them getting it?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #32
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Context is of prime importance. If our Constitution guarantees the pursuit of happiness, then quite unconsciously we pursue happiness.

    Unfortunately the pursuit of happiness guarantees depression, anxiety, and their psychological defences.

    But worse, we see our Constitution as a model for other peoples. So we have the world's greatest propaganda machine, and the world's greatest military, and the world's largest economy, to persuade others to follow in our footsteps.

    So to reject the pursuit of happiness means rejecting the best Constitution in the world. It is tantamount to rejecting our loving parents.

    It's the perfect trap.

  3. #33
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If a person doesn't want happiness, what do they want, and what would be the result of them getting it?
    Health, productivity, wisdom, to remain unmoved by life's ups and downs.

  4. #34
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Health, productivity, wisdom, to remain unmoved by life's ups and downs.
    So what is the result of getting that?
    Why does one want that? What is its purpose? How does one know they want that?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #35
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?
    It would depend on other factors like similar interests, open mindedness etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Would you believe they were kidding themselves?.
    Most likely yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?
    Absolutely not. I might share information with them (if they solicited it) and exercise "positive influence".

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Would you alienate them?
    Weak sauce.

    I would like to reframe this. Suffering is an opposite of happiness. Reducing "suffering" can increase happiness. Someone who does not try to avoid "suffering" probably has something going on that may need professional help.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So what is the result of getting that?
    Why does one want that? What is its purpose? How does one know they want that?
    Health creates a better functioning mind and body. Productivity means functioning within the bigger picture and doing one's duty. Wisdom allows one to see things in a clearer light, being unmoved gives one the freedom to focus on what really matters. One knows they want these things by seeing that these things work, that they allow one to fulfil their purpose. One may simply want these things and not know why, or may learn through religion.

    Why should someone want happiness?

  7. #37

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    Wow. A lot more responses than I thought there would be over the last couple of days. I have been rather busy IRL.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    it's not possible to be in a good mood all the time, unless you have severe brain damage, but no i wouldn't want that. but i took it to mean no happiness whatsoever
    Complete absence of wealth seems like a rather impractical thing too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Good mood, joyousness, etc, are unequivocally good, except at funerals. Some of us find a type of meta-joy of the experience of just being human, this makes sense to me because so much of life is not joy, you may as well value the bad bits for exactly what they are on their own terms and get meaning from them. This leads to wanting happiness really not being a core desire. It comes and goes at its will, wanted or not. Here's a little secret, some e4's, I won't mention who, sometimes look forward to some cathartic sadness, anger, true jealousy, etc. Though in health they are 'happy' to take it as it comes, and it always does if you're really living.
    There are plenty of other circumstances when a serious demeanor is appropriate. Dealing with a friend in pain. Handling a crucial decision. Doing things that require concentration. Taking care of something that requires doing something uncomfortable…
    Nevertheless, I think I know what you were getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

    From Wiktionary:

    happy (adj.)

    Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).

    I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.
    The definition I was referring to was more in line with:
    From dictionary.reference.com
    Happy(adj.)
    feeling, showing, or expressing joy; pleased
    Happiness(noun)
    good fortune; pleasure; contentment; joy.

    I am talking explicitly about the affect of feeling happy. Not general satisfaction with life, nor engagement/flow, nor finding meaning or purpose. I am talking about being in a good mood or high mood. The desire for pleasure

    It may be a narrow definition, but not an unusual one.

    A doctor working under stress to save a patient, a runner working through the pain of the last miles of a marathon, and a cop working a murder investigation may find meaning and purpose in what they are doing, or engaged in a state of flow (which in fact is neutral in affect), but their moods in these activities are usually not high.
    From the very beginning, my emphasis has been on mood. I could have perhaps chosen a better word, but I am surprised the distinction between these differing types of happiness is unfamiliar to you. We’ve talked about it before.

    @Legion @Such Irony @gromit @SpankyMcFly @Hard @Magic Poriferan, would your responses change knowing that I am referring explicitly to mood?

    @Lark , the reason this question is important to me, is that I think we as a society place such a premium on high mood that many avoid people who don’t care so much for it. I think a large reason why a lot of people are more miserable than they would otherwise be, is because they are put upon to be in a higher mood…not just more grateful, or more satisfied with life, or engagement. People are told to smile more, The lack of smiling is seen as an indictment of character or attitude.

    I think @Qlip @Legion and @Mole have some idea of what I was getting at. I could have perhaps been more articulate. But I am referring to the philosophy of hedonism. I use the word “happy” because that is the word hedonists use too.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    [...]
    If what you really meant is "What if someone doesn't want wealth, fame, or to seem happy to others all the time by smiling and otherwise affecting 'happiness'?" then... whatever, I couldn't care less.
    Likes gromit liked this post

  9. #39
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Would your responses change knowing that I am referring explicitly to mood?
    Unlikely. I would still need context of the persons situation.
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  10. #40
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We are meaning creating animals, so wealth, fame, and happiness, only take their place within a framework of meaning.

    So wealth, fame, and happiness, are secondary to meaning.

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