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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Huh? Why would I care? Why would I feel alienated? Force them to admit they really want these things? That's ridiculous. Even if they were lying, why would I care, it has no impact on me whatsoever. They're free to feel any way they want. I can say that I desire happiness, probably wealth but fame? Hell no. I don't care if you believe that or not.
    I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. @93JC "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

    "Forcing people to admit that they really wanted it" is rather hyperbolic, I admit. But almost everyone in the thread thinks that the desire for good mood is something unlike the other two.

    Wealth is seen as just a means to other ends, like basic physiological needs and things of that sort. I don't have a clue what the appeal of fame is, but I imagine it has something to do with having the trust of others and/or wanting to leave a legacy taken to some ridiculous extremes.

    By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time. This is of course an extreme, just as wanting to the richest person in the world, or wanting to known and liked by everyone.

    When people pursue wealth outside the context having enough to live, and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Greed is good").

    When someone pursues fame outside the context of having a purpose from themselves and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Let go of the 'little people'.").

    When someone pursues elation** outside the context of being healthy and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interedt ("Gotta do what make me happy").

    ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation". @fia @prplchknz @Lexicon @Opal @Snoopy22 @Qlip @Nixie,

    Since everyone seemed to have the same reaction, I figured I was unclear, and would clarify it once.

    *I hope what I meant is a little more clear.
    **Is elation a better word?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    it's not possible to be in a good mood all the time, unless you have severe brain damage, but no i wouldn't want that. but i took it to mean no happiness whatsoever
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?
    Not everybody desires wealth and fame. I don't - I want to be happy with myself and my creations, and feel that they are good enough for me. Any recognition I get from others is great, but ultimately it is a bonus. I also dread the thought of being a celebrity, as a peaceful private life is very important to me. If anything, I'd prefer to be recognised after my death than during my life.

    As for happiness, I feel that if somebody doesn't desire to be happy they are most likely very depressed. How we aim to achieve happiness will vary substantially, but I do believe that the desire for personal fulfillment is almost universal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?
    No, and no.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. @93JC "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

    "Forcing people to admit that they really wanted it" is rather hyperbolic, I admit. But almost everyone in the thread thinks that the desire for good mood is something unlike the other two.

    Wealth is seen as just a means to other ends, like basic physiological needs and things of that sort. I don't have a clue what the appeal of fame is, but I imagine it has something to do with having the trust of others and/or wanting to leave a legacy taken to some ridiculous extremes.

    By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time. This is of course an extreme, just as wanting to the richest person in the world, or wanting to known and liked by everyone.

    When people pursue wealth outside the context having enough to live, and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Greed is good").

    When someone pursues fame outside the context of having a purpose from themselves and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Let go of the 'little people'.").

    When someone pursues elation** outside the context of being healthy and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interedt ("Gotta do what make me happy").

    ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation". @fia @prplchknz @Lexicon @Opal @Snoopy22 @Qlip @Nixie,

    Since everyone seemed to have the same reaction, I figured I was unclear, and would clarify it once.

    *I hope what I meant is a little more clear.
    **Is elation a better word?
    Good mood, joyousness, etc, are unequivocally good, except at funerals. Some of us find a type of meta-joy of the experience of just being human, this makes sense to me because so much of life is not joy, you may as well value the bad bits for exactly what they are on their own terms and get meaning from them. This leads to wanting happiness really not being a core desire. It comes and goes at its will, wanted or not. Here's a little secret, some e4's, I won't mention who, sometimes look forward to some cathartic sadness, anger, true jealousy, etc. Though in health they are 'happy' to take it as it comes, and it always does if you're really living.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. @93JC "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

    [...]

    By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time.

    [...]

    ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation".
    You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

    From Wiktionary:

    happy (adj.)

    Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).


    I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

    From Wiktionary:

    happy (adj.)

    Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).


    I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.
    It's a heck more complicated than that. When a person decides to climb a mountain. Knowing as rational individuals that 80% of it will be uncomfortableness and exasperation and fear with a small amount of short lived elation at the end, how to does this overriding desire for 'contentedness and satisfaction' come into play?

    People can object to contentedness itself. People find satisfaction in objecting to things.

    All I know and I can say truthfully, I'm not mentally ill, I welcome happiness but I don't actively want it above a lot of other things, like experience and challenge, at least not beyond a healthy measure. I can say the same for water, and air, but people don't categorize that as a motivator or want, unless like happiness, they just don't have quite enough.

    I guess this equates to saying that I'm only content when I have some measure of discontentedness in my life. Or equally I'm discontent to have nothing to object to in my life. *shrug* When the answer doesn't make sense, it's usually because the question is silly.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    It's a heck more complicated than that.
    No, it's incredibly simple.

    E.g.

    When a person decides to climb a mountain. Knowing as rational individuals that 80% of it will be uncomfortableness and exasperation and fear with a small amount of short lived elation at the end, how to does this overriding desire for 'contentedness and satisfaction' come into play?
    Because climbing the mountain makes them happy.

    I ... want ... experience and challenge
    Because that makes you HAPPY.

    Thank you for re-affirming my point.

  8. #18
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    This is a difficult question to answer so I consulted the CIA who suggested I tie them to a chair and torture them until they wanted wealth, fame, and happiness.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    No, it's incredibly simple.

    E.g.



    Because climbing the mountain makes them happy.



    Because that makes you HAPPY.

    Thank you for re-affirming my point.
    Well if you edit it, you can make me say anything, can't you? Actually, I think there's an underlying state of being that isn't emotion at all. It's affirmation of being alive, the full presence which can create happiness, but is its own point. This is what lies at the apex of climbing a mountain, getting involved in a love affair, or even cutting oneself. Monkeys have it, ameobas have it, and we have to work for it.

  10. #20
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    I don't see why wealth or fame would be desirable. But, the level of wealth I want would be considered very wealthy by 95% of the world. I mean, I would like a house, I guess.

    As for happiness, we are programmed to want it. You probably would be fooling yourself if you said you didn't want it. But there's a difference between implicitly and explicitly wanting something.

    Happiness is something to use not something to strive for.

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