Is there a True Good? And other such questions.

[Mole]

Our touch-stone is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And those who accept and practise the declaration are good.

 

[Opal]

dr

"Good" and "bad" are culturally defined. In my eyes, we can make the most of this life experience by maximizing happiness for all beings--if an action, object or idea helps this goal, it is "good"; if it hurts this goal, it is "bad". Without priorities and primary drives, "good" and "bad" mean nothing.

Also, "will" is an empowering illusion, and "god" is the unseen force responsible for everything we can't explain.

"Truth" is difficult.

 

[Mole]

dr

"Good" and "bad" are culturally defined. In my eyes, we can make the most of this life experience by maximizing happiness for all beings--if an action, object or idea helps this goal, it is "good"; if it hurts this goal, it is "bad". Without priorities and primary drives, "good" and "bad" mean nothing.

Also, "will" is an empowering illusion, and "god" is the unseen force responsible for everything we can't explain.

"Truth" is difficult.

Yes, there are trade-offs. If we maximise happiness for some, we minimise happiness for others. And who we maximise for, and who we minimise for, is determined by politics.

And politics is as we know is: who does what to who.

 

[Pionart]

Well said. Looks like your free will is working just fine.

But but... it wasn't my free will that did that! It was just a string of brain functions all coming together to form that conclusion! Each of them was predetermined in advance!

Science doesn't really know if the human mind works on deterministic principles (I don't mean, they don't know if it works that way to a degree - of course it does). So, why assume no free will without evidence? That's an extrapolation of the data. Neither should we assume there is free will. We should accept the reality of what we know, rather than speculating about the options, because we just don't know. It is better to be free from those kind of assumptions, but only accept them in matter of degree.

It is good to take note of the various psychological forces which cause you to act in a particular way. This imposes this force, that another. The end result is this thought, feeling and action. There are variables in the equation which are unknown.

 

[Pionart]

Yes, there are trade-offs. If we maximise happiness for some, we minimise happiness for others. And who we maximise for, and who we minimise for, is determined by politics.

And politics is as we know is: who does what to who.

Are power and happiness synonymous?

I wonder if happiness is always balanced by equal amounts of unhappiness. Like kinetic and potential energy, there is happiness potential, then the potential is unleashed into working happiness, and then there is less potential for happiness.

I wonder if everything is in balance forever and always. And there is no escaping this balance. And it's fine the way it is.

 

[Opal]

Yes, there are trade-offs. If we maximise happiness for some, we minimise happiness for others. And who we maximise for, and who we minimise for, is determined by politics.

And politics is as we know is: who does what to who.

I would argue we have enough resources to provide a platform for happiness for every living being, but our wealth is grossly misallocated.

Maybe we can reform our societies' structural flaws while there are still enough living beings for wealth distribution to be an issue...

 

[Nicodemus]

Maybe we can reform our societies' structural flaws while there are still enough living beings for wealth distribution to be an issue...

We need reforms in some places and revolutions in others. But reforms are slow and revolutions unpredictable. I propose we give up and embrace nuclear holocaust.

 

[Opal]

We need reforms in some places and revolutions in others. But reforms are slow and revolutions unpredictable. I propose we give up and embrace nuclear holocaust.

Your proposal has more or less been my approach.

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

But but... it wasn't my free will that did that! It was just a string of brain functions all coming together to form that conclusion! Each of them was predetermined in advance!

Uh huh, right.

 

[Opal]

But but... it wasn't my free will that did that! It was just a string of brain functions all coming together to form that conclusion! Each of them was predetermined in advance!

You're right, they were.

I'm still convinced. If morality is false, it doesn't matter what we believe. If it is true, we should believe it. Hence I will try as much as I can to lead a moral life.

"If morality is false"... can you expand on that? Morality arises from the common drive for security, and the understanding that every action has consequences. Not harming others is perfectly logical, but unfortunately religion was a necessary vessel for these ideas.

 

[Pionart]

You're right, they were.



"If morality is false"... can you expand on that? Morality arises from the common drive for security, and the understanding that every action has consequences. Not harming others is perfectly logical, but unfortunately religion was a necessary vessel for these ideas.

What I mean is what I said in the OP, that ultimately it doesn't make a difference. Security is no better than not having security, happiness is no better than suffering. Thinking some states are better than others is just an illusion we have evolved to believe in. It's just our brain giving us messages. Goodness then is just whatever we think it is but has no ultimate reality, so all of existence is equally neutral.

 

[Opal]

What I mean is what I said in the OP, that ultimately it doesn't make a difference. Security is no better than not having security, happiness is no better than suffering. Thinking some states are better than others is just an illusion we have evolved to believe in. It's just our brain giving us messages. Goodness then is just whatever we think it is but has no ultimate reality, so all of existence is equally neutral.

Ah... I agree, reality is unaffected by what does and does not serve our wills.

 

[Pionart]

Ah... I agree, reality is unaffected by what does and does not serve our wills.

Well I disagree due to the wager I placed earlier. There COULD be an ultimate good, like maybe happiness really is just a better thing than unhappiness. And given that it could be the case, we would be foolish not to believe in it.

 

[Passacaglia]

What is Good, What is Free, What is Will, What is God, What is Truth, What is Is?

My philosophical approach is rather pragmatic. When you get right down to it, goodness is entirely subjective, free will (and chance, btw) are illusions, and God is no more likely than the flying spaghetti monster.

But I was raised to equate goodness with happiness, and that's a better definition than any others I've come across. Sometimes it gets messy; murdering people makes extreme antisocial psychopaths happy, which forces us to make further value judgments. But it's a very intuitive concept, and I'm proud to espouse it.

Free will and chance are illusions that result from us being unable to quantify or even recognize all of the factors that contribute to any given decision or event. But they're convenient illusions all the same; at least until such a moment when humanity understands everything in the wide universe, if that ever happens.

I personally have no use for God, but for others religion can impart happiness, so my usual attitude is whatevs. Except when I hear a news story about some fundy assholes hating on innocent people, or blowing people up. Then my attitude swings toward 'militant atheist' for a few days.

On a more positive note, truth is real; although we can and do make mistakes in verifying certain truths, and many truths are simply beyond our current technological means to understand.

Fun topic!

 

[Pionart]

My philosophical approach is rather pragmatic. When you get right down to it, goodness is entirely subjective, free will (and chance, btw) are illusions, and God is no more likely than the flying spaghetti monster.

But I was raised to equate goodness with happiness, and that's a better definition than any others I've come across. Sometimes it gets messy; murdering people makes extreme antisocial psychopaths happy, which forces us to make further value judgments. But it's a very intuitive concept, and I'm proud to espouse it.

Free will and chance are illusions that result from us being unable to quantify or even recognize all of the factors that contribute to any given decision or event. But they're convenient illusions all the same; at least until such a moment when humanity understands everything in the wide universe, if that ever happens.

I personally have no use for God, but for others religion can impart happiness, so my usual attitude is whatevs. Except when I hear a news story about some fundy assholes hating on innocent people, or blowing people up. Then my attitude swings toward 'militant atheist' for a few days.

On a more positive note, truth is real; although we can and do make mistakes in verifying certain truths, and many truths are simply beyond our current technological means to understand.

Fun topic!

I'm also quite pragmatic, or I like to think so.

To me, whether we believe in those things depends on whether that belief is useful. For example, if research shows that belief in God or free will leads people to act in a better way, then I say, believe in them! There is no truth but what works, and when it stops working it becomes less true.

I think Truth is real, but our understanding of what the truth is, is highly limited.
And I think true freedom is real, and God is real, and good is real, but again, our understanding of what these things are is highly limited.

I think God is the one who knows what truth is, what freedom is, what good is, and we only know these things implicitly, in the sense that we necessarily act based on their principles, by the law of creation.

So, we want to apply our fundamental nature to our physical counterpart. We want to develop knowledge of who we are. And this knowledge is shaped by who we are, so becomes increasingly more like who we are. The principles which apply to the soul, also apply to the body in other words, and their communication is through the spirit.

As above, so below.