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  1. #11
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    By such reasoning, mental constructs themselves do not exist. Or you believe in the predisposition of mental constructs, a rather bizarre thought when we start to play into the understanding of psychology.
    No, morality is non-existent. Mental constructs do exist, to assert they don't is foolishness...
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  2. #12
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    No, morality is non-existent. Mental constructs do exist, to assert they don't is foolishness...
    Let's reason this:
    Morality = Value Constructs
    Value constructs affect everyone.
    If morality is non-existent, value constructs do not exist, therefore no one in the world is affected by such things.
    Yet everyone in the world is affected by value constructs...
    So there am I missing a piece of the puzzle here?
    Should I be going into the root core of an individual's desire?
    How everyone is essentially only caring for themselves because it is the comfort of the formulation of the neural networks of the mind?
    Yet even that is a construct of an instinctual value, which is part of the an individual's value constructs.
    Should I be talking about biology? How everything is akin to a more complicated rock and so values do not exist?
    But it's still affecting all these people... grrr this logic. I mean we label the complicated things based on new extensions but still... grrr it's kinda straining my simplistic mind.
    And so...
    If morality is non-existent... what is the name of those intangible things... that affect people in the world?

  3. #13
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    I'm still convinced. If morality is false, it doesn't matter what we believe. If it is true, we should believe it. Hence I will try as much as I can to lead a moral life.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I'm still convinced. If morality is false, it doesn't matter what we believe. If it is true, we should believe it. Hence I will try as much as I can to lead a moral life.
    My friend, God doesn't condemn you; He loves you as you are.

    If your heart condemns you, look to the cross and Jesus. Believe.

    You have unmerited, unearned, and undeserved favor with God through Jesus.

    God makes everything beautiful in its time.

    God's grace and peace to you.

  5. #15
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I have recently been considering the problem of what is truly "Good". Some may say that happiness is in itself good. Others say that God is good, and following the law of God is good. Still others will claim that goodness is found in structures, that achieving great things is where goodness lies, or fulfilling our proper functioning.
    Morality is subjective (as you just pointed out by citing multiple systems of it, but each variant morality requires a true good and a true evil, or else it's amorality and amorality having anything related to good or evil is an inherent contradiction. Even if the morality rejects the idea of a universally "good" act, it still has inherent gradation so long as there are good and bad acts, which would otherwise be amorality, so...

    There's no single act all systems of morality consider good, so there's no one "true" good. But there's an ultimate, apex good in each system of morality.

    And what of Free Will? Some say the very concept of Free Will is a contradiction. For Freedom is acausal, and Will operates in the world of causality. Anything which is free can never effect the world of matter which is determined, and so any feelings we have of free will are necessarily delusions, for a feeling influences matter, and anything which is free can not, insofar as it is free, influence anything else.
    People who say free will is a contradiction are just trying to muddy it up by arguing semantics, which is annoying to do, so people just decide to cede the point.

    Whether or not freedom and will have anything to do with causality and causality is a moot point (though I disagree with you, I don't think will has anything to do with causality). Free will as an idea is based on ownership and control of one's own actions. You're talking about freedom like it makes us intangible from the real world. Being free to do something means we act under our initiative, and having the will to do something is that initiative, so semantically the two aren't contradictory. Free will is us having the means (our initiative/will) within ourselves to have ownership over and control of our own actions. If I wanted to stab myself in the leg, as stupid and illogical as it would be, I can do so, because I have free will, and it was me who stabbed myself in the leg, not some other being that made me do it. Even if I'm not acting in my right mind, I'm still not being controlled by some other entity, but rather by own (compromised) self, so I'm still demonstrating free will, though not self-control.

    The antithesis to free will is the idea that we're slaves to social systems and/or upbringing, that we ultimately have no ownership over who we are, and therefor cannot have control over what we do. It's the idea that we aren't responsible for our own actions because -- subconsciously -- we have no ownership over our selves, and therefor the faculties our actions stem are pre-defined and not truly free. It's basically that our actions are defined the mold society formed us from. If that's the discussion you want, that's another thread entirely.

    There are realistic limitations, of course. I can't fly because I don't possess the capability, and free will doesn't grant me capability, only the control of what I'm capable of. And I can't go out and make a million dollars tomorrow, because there's no action within my control that lets me do so. Free will doesn't let me control probability like the lottery and it doesn't grant me omnipotence to control others into giving me their money. But free will does grant me the capability of going out and trying to do those things.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  6. #16
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Morality is subjective (as you just pointed out by citing multiple systems of it, but each variant morality requires a true good and a true evil, or else it's amorality and amorality having anything related to good or evil is an inherent contradiction. Even if the morality rejects the idea of a universally "good" act, it still has inherent gradation so long as there are good and bad acts, which would otherwise be amorality, so...

    There's no single act all systems of morality consider good, so there's no one "true" good. But there's an ultimate, apex good in each system of morality.
    So, each system has its own good and evil. But then, there is no True good and evil. So, it would make no difference whether you act in one way or another, it only matters to a particular system?

    The fact that there are multiple systems for good conduct doesn't mean that morality is "subjective" any more than the laws of nature are subjective. We can have differing opinions on what the laws of nature are, but there are still absolute laws which don't depend on what any person thinks.

    People who say free will is a contradiction are just trying to muddy it up by arguing semantics, which is annoying to do, so people just decide to cede the point.

    Whether or not freedom and will have anything to do with causality and causality is a moot point (though I disagree with you, I don't think will has anything to do with causality). Free will as an idea is based on ownership and control of one's own actions. You're talking about freedom like it makes us intangible from the real world. Being free to do something means we act under our initiative, and having the will to do something is that initiative, so semantically the two aren't contradictory. Free will is us having the means (our initiative/will) within ourselves to have ownership over and control of our own actions. If I wanted to stab myself in the leg, as stupid and illogical as it would be, I can do so, because I have free will, and it was me who stabbed myself in the leg, not some other being that made me do it. Even if I'm not acting in my right mind, I'm still not being controlled by some other entity, but rather by own (compromised) self, so I'm still demonstrating free will, though not self-control.

    The antithesis to free will is the idea that we're slaves to social systems and/or upbringing, that we ultimately have no ownership over who we are, and therefor cannot have control over what we do. It's the idea that we aren't responsible for our own actions because -- subconsciously -- we have no ownership over our selves, and therefor the faculties our actions stem are pre-defined and not truly free. It's basically that our actions are defined the mold society formed us from. If that's the discussion you want, that's another thread entirely.

    There are realistic limitations, of course. I can't fly because I don't possess the capability, and free will doesn't grant me capability, only the control of what I'm capable of. And I can't go out and make a million dollars tomorrow, because there's no action within my control that lets me do so. Free will doesn't let me control probability like the lottery and it doesn't grant me omnipotence to control others into giving me their money. But free will does grant me the capability of going out and trying to do those things.
    You're describing a compatibilist account of free will. This kind of free will can co-exist with a 100% determined universe (not that the universe is necessarily predetermined). This is not the kind of free will I am looking for. I am looking for something which introduces a true possibility to act otherwise than you would have, given the deterministic laws of nature. Of course actions can be controlled by yourself rather than solely on the environment outside of yourself, but then -you- are controlled by the laws of nature. So free will in that case would simply be a structural relation that exists in a determined universe. I find this unsatisfying.

    So, for me, the only way to introduce true free will would be to deny that determinism applies to humans, which does in a way set us away from the "tangible" world. (I am currently looking to quantum physics and spiritualism to explain it)

  7. #17
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Yes. I have not a lick of interest of debating it though.
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  8. #18
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    The thing that stops a lack of free will from becoming a problem to me, is the lack of truth. We may be convinced that there is no free will, and that life is just a movie we are watching which just seems so real, but really, this is just a model we are using to explain the world. And a model is an approximation at best. And the implications of the model are not necessarily real implications. The reality, if indeed reality means anything, is far more profound than any model we can use to explain it. Free will may or may not exist, and since it is just a concept, surely doesn't, but the reality of things doesn't care about that, for it is greater.

    We can learn things from the notion of determinism. We learn that things have reasons for them, or rather than we can assign reasons to them. Things in the world don't spontaneously manifest but have their antecedents in their prior circumstances.

    And my morality says that I should not dwell in negativity, so when an idea cripples me, I should not stay there. I can try and find a fix for it, to give myself closure, but I shouldn't require that. I should try and empower myself, not take away my power.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    And my morality says that I should not dwell in negativity, so when an idea cripples me, I should not stay there. I can try and find a fix for it, to give myself closure, but I shouldn't require that. I should try and empower myself, not take away my power.
    Well said. Looks like your free will is working just fine.

  10. #20
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I'm still convinced. If morality is false, it doesn't matter what we believe. If it is true, we should believe it. Hence I will try as much as I can to lead a moral life.
    Pascal's wager!

    I'm more for believing in gray areas... so many uncertainties in life that to make a judgement of good or evil towards someone's actions without understanding all of the facts involved would be a bit hasty. that said, those who believe in things with a definite certainty seem less lost and adrift than me... I can't be one of them though...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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