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    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Default Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    there could've been a major flood in the region though. the mesopotamian's also had a flood story that sounds similar to the noah one. but that's just saying there could have been a flood. more of flood's happen but we didn't have the technology to explain it back then. most things that can now be explained by science but not really any other way got explained with religion. I don't think the whole earth flooded, but it's not unreasonable considering there was not really good transportation and people had limited scope of the world that to them the flood was the whole world. especially if it's big enough. and both religions are from pretty much the same region. but there's no evidence of the stories being around because of a flood or if they're even the same flood

    The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | NCSE
    (I've not read the whole thing just skimmed it, because it's long, I was looking for evidence for my argument)
    That said, @prplchknz, if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.
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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    That said, @prplchknz, if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.
    i'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply mentioning that some things in the bible might've been real events that people couldn't explain or oppurtunist saw it as an oppurtunity to convince people of something. and so the flood could've happened (but there's no proof)given the region and some people were like and added the religious elements to it. and people like things to be explained.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
    Likes PocketFullOf liked this post

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    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply mentioning that some things in the bible might've been real events that people couldn't explain or oppurtunist saw it as an oppurtunity to convince people of something. and so the flood could've happened (but there's no proof)given the region and some people were like and added the religious elements to it. and people like things to be explained.
    The story of Troy was similar. The Greeks heavily mythologized the tale to the point it could not be, yet Troy existed and the Trojan War happened.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    The story of Troy was similar. The Greeks heavily mythologized the tale to the point it could not be, yet Troy existed and the Trojan War happened.
    yes, i have no interest in proving or disproving god. I just was reminded of that and thought i'd share.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #5
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    That said, @prplchknz, if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.
    The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism. The Hebrew people did not believe in expressing themselves with visual art like all other cultures because they believed (2nd Commandment) making images was a sin. They were nomadic and lived on what God gave them daily (daily bread), at least until they became the Nation of Israel, so they were poor, desert dwellers for the most part. Now consider that their contribution was the Old Testament. They poured every ounce of their expression into their stories of God and passed them down for eons before they were even written down. We can't point to a great sculpture or painting or pyramid and say, "Those were God's people," but we can point to the Bible, the most widely sold book in the world, and say, "That is from God's people."

    All that to say that their story, our story if you choose to align yourself thus, was their art form and their poetry. It wasn't to be ONLY taken literally as modern Christians seem to want to do. It is uncannily similar to the historical record we have to go by. And more evidence is forthcoming all the time. I have already blogged about how the 6 days of creation align very well with events surrounding, and after, the Big Bang.

    Most people are familiar with the 10 Commandments. As we read the beginning of Genesis, the story of creation, and of the founding fathers of this religion that believes in One God, ALHYM; it goes along and we notice that the longer man lives on the earth, the more his sin spreads. First his sin is just against God, then his sin is against his family, finally his sin is against society and "every thought in man's mind is evil all the day long."

    That is the exact time when God decides to flood the earth and start over with Noah and Noah's 3 sons. These sons are super important because they are going to establish the line of the chosen people of God. Before Jesus, genealogy was an especially important thing. God is being Supreme Ruler and Judge. He is fed up that all man can do is evil and He has the right to annihilate the very man he created!

    So the flood comes upon the 'land' or 'earth'. It is only about 20 feet deep per Bible description, and this correlates with sedimentary lines in the region of the Holy Land. The ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. It is to have 3 elevations or floors, which is meaningful as 3 means circle. It is made of Cypress trees covered with pitch and only had one door and one window.

    Our context here is the HOLY LAND and God's Chosen People who lived there, who had begun in the Garden of Eden (which likely originated in Jericho, probably the oldest town on earth). For all intents and purposes, this IS the world. There was no reason to specify that is was Ur or Jericho or any other place because that would limit the story, when the whole point of the Hebrews' story is to show off the magnanimity of their God, to make it larger than life because our God is larger than life!

    This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.
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  6. #6
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism. The Hebrew people did not believe in expressing themselves with visual art like all other cultures because they believed (2nd Commandment) making images was a sin. They were nomadic and lived on what God gave them daily (daily bread), at least until they became the Nation of Israel, so they were poor, desert dwellers for the most part. Now consider that their contribution was the Old Testament. They poured every ounce of their expression into their stories of God and passed them down for eons before they were even written down. We can't point to a great sculpture or painting or pyramid and say, "Those were God's people," but we can point to the Bible, the most widely sold book in the world, and say, "That is from God's people."

    All that to say that their story, our story if you choose to align yourself thus, was their art form and their poetry. It wasn't to be ONLY taken literally as modern Christians seem to want to do. It is uncannily similar to the historical record we have to go by. And more evidence is forthcoming all the time. I have already blogged about how the 6 days of creation align very well with events surrounding, and after, the Big Bang.

    Most people are familiar with the 10 Commandments. As we read the beginning of Genesis, the story of creation, and of the founding fathers of this religion that believes in One God, ALHYM; it goes along and we notice that the longer man lives on the earth, the more his sin spreads. First his sin is just against God, then his sin is against his family, finally his sin is against society and "every thought in man's mind is evil all the day long."

    That is the exact time when God decides to flood the earth and start over with Noah and Noah's 3 sons. These sons are super important because they are going to establish the line of the chosen people of God. Before Jesus, genealogy was an especially important thing. God is being Supreme Ruler and Judge. He is fed up that all man can do is evil and He has the right to annihilate the very man he created!

    So the flood comes upon the 'land' or 'earth'. It is only about 20 feet deep per Bible description, and this correlates with sedimentary lines in the region of the Holy Land. The ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. It is to have 3 elevations or floors, which is meaningful as 3 means circle. It is made of Cypress trees covered with pitch and only had one door and one window.

    Our context here is the HOLY LAND and God's Chosen People who lived there, who had begun in the Garden of Eden (which likely originated in Jericho, probably the oldest town on earth). For all intents and purposes, this IS the world. There was no reason to specify that is was Ur or Jericho or any other place because that would limit the story, when the whole point of the Hebrews' story is to show off the magnanimity of their God, to make it larger than life because our God is larger than life!

    This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.
    Interesting assertion, but the story has the boat land on mount Ararat. Also, do me a favor and look at the longest wooden ship ever built. It twisted apart in rough seas.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  7. #7
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I hadn't gotten to its landing though.

    These were not seas. It was more like a pontoon boat than a ship I believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism.

    This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.
    So we're essentially talking about a handful of ancient villages in the middle east with a local God who caused a shallow flooding of a plain and saved the local farm animals. Okay I can see how this must be relevant to the entire globe and is something to live our lives by.

    My argument for the non-existence of God is actually your argument for it. The God of the Hebrews appears no more powerful, nor more relevant than any localised deity to whom miraculous feats are ascribed. There are thousands if not millions of similarly themed symbolic stories all over the world. Is the fact that this one made it onto papyrus rather than living on in oral tradition surety that it's any more correct, or relevant than any other mythology out there?

    Sure the story has been embellished and reprinted many times, only through significant support by wealthy parties with their own agenda's. Not dissimilar to how bestsellers occur in both fiction and non-fiction now. Someone sponsors the work to notoriety because it's financially expedient to do so. I don't see government and church backing as assurance in it's correctness. In fact I see the government and church backing as highly suspicious. It's plainly obvious both organisations are riddled with corruption, always have been. They are the agents of human whim rather than divine will, any cursory look at history will see both church and state manipulating law in tandem to achieve very material ends.

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    All valid points.

    God causes everything to happen, God created everything, and God saves. When you are in love with someone-when someone makes you feel alive and brings you out of the stagnation you were in, it's natural to think of them as larger than life. With God it's like this but magnified! The Hebrews illustrate their reverence for Him in part by speaking of Him in supernatural ways, because He does supernatural things: He delivers us from our captivity, loves us unconditionally, provides for our every need, and gives us peace. The 'proof' of God resides in how utterly good you feel no matter what is going on around you.

    The argument for God will not be won by letters on a screen or debates won or lost. The argument for God occurs in each person's heart, soul, and mind as they become filled with the Holy Spirit, which nothing else can emulate.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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    And yet I could make the exact same assertions about the Law Of Attraction, Buddhism, Celtic deities and roman ones or magic and my argument would be equally valid. If we decide how we feel about things is the truth of them then we are deciding multiple competing truths are all truth. So we are deciding that God both does and does not exist. I could find probably as many people say they feel better without God as you could find saying they feel better with.

    Incidentally I'm a believer in Gods as concepts just not as personages who judge and condemn and decide the fate of people. By your own admission God causes everything including the evil in men. So God judges himself really and any hell waiting for us will be where we ultimately meet him.

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