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Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

Mademoiselle

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Not quite yet, as I want to understand where you stand on this, and based off what I have heard you say in the past.

In the past, I have heard you say you believe your religious beliefs are the one true way, and that everyone should adhere to them since it is the "best" lifestyle to live under.

Since you are now saying that we should just not try to convince each other and leave each other alone, that says to me that you simply don't want people to talk about any of this in particular, so your views can stay unquestioned and in your eyes "right". The combination of these two speaks of an individual who wants to silence dissent or quiet questioning. The former of you saying "lets not try to question each other" is fine by itself. That's live and let live. However, combined with your stance you have expressed in the past changes that completely.

There is a difference between live and let live, and live but not want to let live. The latter of which is, in my view and quite a few others, not ok.

That said, if your view is that you genuinely do not want others of other views to not change what they do, how they live, and what they believe, then I will let this be and stop the discussion. The reason I bring this up is because I very strongly view the concept of religion as something that is purely individual and should not and can not extend beyond the self. To start applying it to others beyond you is profoundly unfair and illogical.

Dear friend, I said my opinion, I meant what I said, stop generating other meanings as if there's anything I'd hide, I'm straight froward, that's it.
I think I'm clear enough
I don't like to repeat my words
Isn't it annoying?

[MENTION=22782]Mademoiselle[/MENTION] [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]


Now that you mention it, what does this mean?

Gödel's ontological proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scientists Use Computer to Mathematically Prove Gödel God Theorem - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Kurt Gödel's Ontological Argument

Still can't quite understand it.

Umm I'm sure you'll understand it and have an opinion of your own
You'd either support the idea or not
I suggest not getting obsessed with it
Because as you know the world makes sense, so does whatever the truth is
So don't worry, all I'm trying to say is that
It's up to you
I had said my opinion, I can explain if you want
Otherwise you're totally free :)
 

Lark

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[MENTION=22782]Mademoiselle[/MENTION] [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]


Now that you mention it, what does this mean?

Gödel's ontological proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scientists Use Computer to Mathematically Prove Gödel God Theorem - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Kurt Gödel's Ontological Argument

Still can't quite understand it.

Godel's proof is only one form of evidence involving mathematics.

Hans Kuhn in his biographical "what I believe" discussed how he had found certain proofs more or less believable or valid over time but he'd never doubted the existence of God.

His mathematical proof was to with infinity and mathematical principles like that, I'm not exactly learned enough to understand it, he had a total of five proofs I think, the one I remember was about the comprehension of beauty, in music or other mediums, its something which would appear to be hard wired into humanity and yet it serves no purpose in terms of survival, adaptation or evolution.
 

Lark

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The thing is though, I'm not so worried about God non-existence, I think that's impossible but what's much more worrying a prospect is that God exists but has no conception of or relationship to humanity what so ever.

If God exists and is as far removed from human beings as human beings are from single cell organisms, which in terms of complexity its not illogical to suppose, then perhaps the relationship is the same, I never think of single cell organisms and I cant relate to them in any meaningful way etc.

Then there is the possible, grimdark I think, possibility, that God was in search of man, that there was a period of serious engagement with mankind which progressed from the particular, one tribe, one people, to the universal, the whole of humankind, but then terminated following one to many confirmations that humankind would never reciprocate the search.

That this is grim dark for me, and the worst possibility, probably reflects my own religious tradition, as it incorporates hope of the most proactively outreaching version of God, more in earnest than the Jewish or other abrahamic theist creedos in the search for man, didnt just search for man but became man, experienced some of the worst things any man could as a consequence of the divinely ordained cosmic order. How would it be possible for God to have a greater insight into humankind than that?
 

Forever_Jung

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Honestly, God's existence/non-existence is not something I agonize over anymore. I am more interested in finding ways to plug into the world, and feel connected. Whether that feeling IS God, or a cognitive illusion, or just gas, I'm happy to feel and experience unity with all living things.
 

Forever_Jung

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People aren't real. That doesn't mean God will stop believing in us.

Wait, am I doing this right? :huh:
 

iNtrovert

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Well, first of all, an infinite regression isn't an issue, because the only reason the Christian God fixes this problem is because they slap the label "eternal" on it, I could do the same for a Universe, and call the problem 'solved'.

There’s more to it than that. Aside from the fact that the universe has been proven to have a definite beginning and is expanding leading to a definite end it is material. We know material things have a life cycle. Also the concept of a non-created God was ascribed those qualities long before it became convenient. The fact of the matter is anything that makes a claim to exists prior to the existence of the universe would need these qualities in light of what we know about the nature of the universe.

Also, explain synthetic necessity, because I've never heard of it, even after looking it up, there's nearly nothing about it. Actually, there is nothing about the exact term "synthetic necessity", I'm wondering if you just artificially amalgamated epistemological necessity and semantical synthetics...

6 . Synthetic necessity obtains where a statement of the form “Necessarily p” (or “It cannot be that so-and-so”) is true and neither it, nor p, is analytic. For example, “Nothing can be green and red all over” is presumably a case of synthetic necessity if the concept of being not red is not contained in the concept of being green. “Necessarily, bachelors are unmarried”, on the other hand, is not a case of synthetic necessity because it is analytic that bachelors are unmarried.7-The Necessity of God’s Existence 1 Daniel von Wachter


Also, you have not proven that it's "likely" even if your argument is true, just that it avoids infinite regression by defining itself to be free of the problem, which you could do with any other explanation.
Already addressed this

The thing is, literally any lesser being/event with the capability of creating a Universe is a more likely creator, by virtue of Occam's razor.

Occam's razor the fewer assumptions that are made, the better. I’d like to know what assumptions about the concept of God need to be made that a supposed Universe without God are not. We are not talking about a specific God or doctrine just the concept of a God that is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.
 

BluRoses

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Define God.

I define God as something greater than myself that created the universe. I generally would say that I subscribe to the Clockwork Universe Theory. Basically, I think that there was a God (most likely with no gender) and they set up the universe and let it go. We have free will as being more than just cogs in the machine, but "God" has moved on to some other Universe or plane of existence at this point. We are on our own unless "God" decides to come back and we need to not %uck it up! :D
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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I define God as something greater than myself that created the universe. I generally would say that I subscribe to the Clockwork Universe Theory. Basically, I think that there was a God (most likely with no gender) and they set up the universe and let it go. We have free will as being more than just cogs in the machine, but "God" has moved on to some other Universe or plane of existence at this point. We are on our own unless "God" decides to come back and we need to not %uck it up! :D

I find that this is quite a common belief to hold. But why did you come to this conclusion? Why was this god needed to set up the world to begin with?
 

SD45T-2

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I define God as something greater than myself that created the universe. I generally would say that I subscribe to the Clockwork Universe Theory.
Rush_Clockwork_Angels_artwork.png


:drummerboy: :rock: :D
 

BluRoses

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I find that this is quite a common belief to hold. But why did you come to this conclusion? Why was this god needed to set up the world to begin with?

Let me preface this by saying that these are my beliefs. Do I think I am absolutely right about God and there is no possible way I could be wrong? No. I have never had anyone that I believed was telling me the truth speak to me and say that they are God. Until that happens to me, I have to say that these are my views and I don't know the absolute truth.

So, I believe that God created this universe. I also believe there are multiple universes. Do i think he is for sure the only being that could exist that could be "God" according to my definition? No. I think it is possible there are more. Do I think God needed to create this universe? I don't know, I'm not them, but I would guess that they have some amount of free will.

To be completely honest, I think I came by these beliefs due to the experiences and what I have read in my lifetime thus far. I was raised Christian and have always Wanted to Believe. However, when I was in my 20's and more mature than my childhood self, I started to really doubt the God and Heaven and Hell that I was taught to believe in. This is largely because of history facts not always agreeing with the Bible, but also just from certain things in Christianity being nonsensical.

I personally think that huge parts of the bible (old and new testament) are malarkey and that the people who wrote their chapters, or the church in editing it, largely messed with and sometimes fabricated information. I do, however, think that it is possible and maybe even likely that there are grains of truth in the Bible, as with other holy books like the Quran. I like to think that maybe God was popping up all over the place at one time, messing with the humans. I think that at this point, "God" is far far away, or he would be physically present in a tangible way, and probably still messing with us.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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So, I believe that God created this universe. I also believe there are multiple universes. Do i think he is for sure the only being that could exist that could be "God" according to my definition? No. I think it is possible there are more. Do I think God needed to create this universe? I don't know, I'm not them, but I would guess that they have some amount of free will.
Yeah, I was just asking, because I was curious to your reasoning in deciding that a being created the universe. But, I see you've explained it in the following paragraph!

Funny...I used to share practically the exact same view as you! I just thought I'd ask to see how similar they were! Thanks for sharing.
 

Jet Stream

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Honestly, God's existence/non-existence is not something I agonize over anymore. I am more interested in finding ways to plug into the world, and feel connected. Whether that feeling IS God, or a cognitive illusion, or just gas, I'm happy to feel and experience unity with all living things.

Of that, I am EXTREMELY envious.
 

Luke O

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I don't believe in God, and I don't subscribe to any religion, but I haven't fully discounted the possibility of other things, other energies that science can't fully explain yet. The human mind has elevated us above mere animals, but is there potential above just being smarter?

I've experimented with magic in the past, to try to tap into such energies (with some skepticism) - what I found was either magic or self-coaching etc. That was a few years ago, now.

With regards to the universe and creation, there are enough models out there that don't require a God to create, destroy or regulate. Nothing like "before the Big Bang, there was this one guy who created himself, who really didn't like the gay people he hadn't created yet".
 

Luke O

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Was God some elder alien (El/Jah) disseminating his religions here as a form of conquest, or a concept invented by humans as a primitive way of explaining why things happen (i.e. pre-scientific), and/or to give an excuse for powerful men to kill or oppress other people?
 

BluRoses

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I don't believe in God, and I don't subscribe to any religion, but I haven't fully discounted the possibility of other things, other energies that science can't fully explain yet. The human mind has elevated us above mere animals, but is there potential above just being smarter?

I've experimented with magic in the past, to try to tap into such energies (with some skepticism) - what I found was either magic or self-coaching etc. That was a few years ago, now.

I wish magic was real. Or that I knew how to access it, if it is real. :mellow:
 
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