Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

[Cygnus]

I've had quite enough of this sappy "IF GOD WUZ WEEL TEHN WHY DID MUH PUPPY DIE?!?!?!" bullshit in arguments of spirituality.



I've said this before, but there's no obligation for the omnipotent master of the universe to be "kind and loving" according to meager human-made standards of ethos. If any of our morals are true, it's because god invented them and gave them to us; and if he didn't give them to us, whatever we believe is dogshit.

Why? Because Might is Right. God is omnipotent. Therefore he is right. No amount of force is sufficient to resist him, so it's a lost cause to do anything but submit.

If God tells you to slaughter millions and you disobey because you think it's "wrong," you risk losing the entire human species to God's wrath. Get over your fantasy altruism and start thinking about the greater good of your species. It's not wrong if God says it's not wrong.


And no, you can't start an armed revolt against God either. It's not like Clash of the Titans where he feeds upon your glory to live--if that were the case, he could've just refrained from putting his creative energy into humans in order to conserve his energy. Which means that we need him more than he needs us.

Disobey god, lose your civilization to him. If one disobeys, the nation suffers. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.




Blood for the Blood God.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

It's less about what god actually is and more about the claims people make about god not making sense.

Also the god you describe would be great for misanthropes looking for a shortcut to wipe out humanity.

 

[Cygnus]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

It's less about what god actually is and more about the claims people make about god not making sense.

Also the god you describe would be great for misanthropes looking for a shortcut to wipe out humanity.

It's because a lot of the arguments I hear against the possibility of a god are complaints that a benevolent god wouldn't allow for the existence of evil in the world or personal suffering upon humans. It's not a sound argument, but I see it everywhere anyway and it's limp as a noodle.

 

[Passacaglia]

Blood for the Blood God.

"Blood and souls! Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch!"

 

[sprinkles]

It's because a lot of the arguments I hear against the possibility of a god are complaints that a benevolent god wouldn't allow for the existence of evil in the world or personal suffering upon humans. It's not a sound argument, but I see it everywhere anyway and it's limp as a noodle.

I've learned to get away from that.

TBH I shouldn't even be in this thread because it's utterly pointless. But discussion calls to me like I'm some kind of crackhead looking for a fix. Gives me my jollies for a minute until I realize I could be doing something more useful, such as drowning in a river.

 

[Passacaglia]

Blood for the Blood God.

Glad to know there's a fellow Moorcock reader on the forum!

I agree that if there is an all-powerful god, such a deity must by necessity be uncaring and possibly outright cruel. But sprinkles is also right that the puppy argument is about how people view god rather than what god may or may not be. A lot of modern first-world people walk around thinking of their god as this omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent being; and this vision is much easier to poke holes in than a merely omnipotent god.

 

[sprinkles]

Glad to know there's a fellow Moorcock reader on the forum!

I agree that if there is an all-powerful god, such a deity must by necessity be uncaring and possibly outright cruel. But sprinkles is also right that the puppy argument is about how people view god rather than what god may or may not be. A lot of modern first-world people walk around thinking of their god as this omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent being; and this vision is much easier to poke holes in than a merely omnipotent god.

It also depends on if we go by essence or by definition. If god is not benevolent, then by definition benevolent god does not exist. But if you look at the essence which is 'god' instead of the adjective which is 'benevolent' one might be able to propose that god exists, but we're wrong about its properties.

 

[Chthonic]

That mystical experience is real, I don't doubt. Mysticism is merely stuff about life we can't yet explain. Whether or not that mystical experience is the result of an omnipotent being, who knows and who really cares? It's clear such a being, if it did exist, has no interest in any kind of intervention so it's existence is less important than it's apparent lack of interest in the goings on of humanity.

 

[Kullervo]

I've had quite enough of this sappy "IF GOD WUZ WEEL TEHN WHY DID MUH PUPPY DIE?!?!?!" bullshit in arguments of spirituality.

That's actually untrue, because god is by defintion perfect in all senses. If he is morally falliable, then he cannot be perfect. If he is not perfect, then he is not god.

I've said this before, but there's no obligation for the omnipotent master of the universe to be "kind and loving" according to meager human-made standards of ethos. If any of our morals are true, it's because god invented them and gave them to us; and if he didn't give them to us, whatever we believe is dogshit.

It isn't about god being kind or loving per se, just that perfection is violated by moral failings. Another consequence of imperfection is that any insipred works (such as the Bible) can no longer be claimed as perfect. Other questions also arise about his degree of power (i.e. an imperfect being cannot be assumed to have limitless power).

Why? Because Might is Right. God is omnipotent. Therefore he is right. No amount of force is sufficient to resist him, so it's a lost cause to do anything but submit.

If God tells you to slaughter millions and you disobey because you think it's "wrong," you risk losing the entire human species to God's wrath. Get over your fantasy altruism and start thinking about the greater good of your species. It's not wrong if God says it's not wrong.

If you read the OT, you will see that the Biblical God has a suspiciously anthropomorphic personality (e.g. temper tantrums, and contradictary statements).

And no, you can't start an armed revolt against God either. It's not like Clash of the Titans where he feeds upon your glory to live--if that were the case, he could've just refrained from putting his creative energy into humans in order to conserve his energy. Which means that we need him more than he needs us.

Disobey god, lose your civilization to him. If one disobeys, the nation suffers. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Blood for the Blood God.

 

[Mychemicalkilljoy]

There is no proof of anything, yet, so any point of view is valid. For me, I am androgynous. I honestly don't really have a religion... I have my own where I don't really "worship," but I pray when I'm nervous... That calms me down. I don't have an opinion in this... I made a cake filled with rainbows and smiles AND I WANT YOU ALL TO EAT IT., even though you are politely debating which is awesome. Thank you.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

I always find myself tending to question the existence of God. It is a strange thing.

The other day I was wondering if God is real when I cam across a scrunched paper on the floor. I don't usually bend over to pick up scrunched papers but this one was near a garbage can at Barnes N Nobles and since I dropped my empty coffee cup near it I figured I'd pick it up and throw it away.

But for some reason there was a word on it in Latin which caught my eye and the word was 'Deus' which was followed by 'es verus.'

Which translates to 'God is real.'

Strangely these sorts of synchronicity perpetually fill my tank and always keep me hopeful and faithful of the future which by clustering is true belief.

Now I know why my ancestors fought so hard to defend their land believing that God was real and made all people equal regardless of what any human thought was true equality for without God what is measured as equal is what is most suitable and not what is of the soul or spirit.

 

[Mole]

God the Role Model

We have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

God created the whole universe so is the model for absolute power.

God is the chosen role model for those who seek absolute power.

God is the role model for total power. God is the role model for totalitarians.

The proof of this is that the great totalitarians of National Socialism, Communism and Islam are absolutely corrupt and evil.

And God provides justification for those who seek absolute power.

And as we become what we worship, those who worship God are becoming absolutely corrupt.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

We have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

God created the whole universe so is the model for absolute power.

God is the chosen role model for those who seek absolute power.

And God provides justification for those who seek absolute power.

And as we become what we worship, those who worship God are becoming absolutely corrupt.

And what about the aspect of God which is powerless? If there is a God certainly God transcends duality and can be both big and small at the same time, real and unreal...or do you think a God would be subject to the illusion of time and space?

 

[Mole]

And what about the aspect of God which is powerless? If there is a God certainly God transcends duality and can be both big and small at the same time, real and unreal...or do you think a God would be subject to the illusion of time and space?

We know God cannot create a square circle because it is a contradiction in terms.

Rather God appeals to the totalitarian impulse in us all.

Our greatest discovery is how to tame the totalitarian impulse.

We tame the totalitarian impulse with liberal democracy because liberal democracy is based on the limitation of power.

Liberal democracy has won the struggle with Christianity, Hinduism and Tribalism, but liberal democracy is still struggling against Chinese Confucianism, Russian Authoritarianism, and Islam.

 

[Riva]

I would like nothing more than to see [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] participating in this thread.

My apologies if you feel annoyed by my summoning.

If anyone in this forum exists that can convince me (most people) that there is an almighty creator god who loves us all, it is you.

Ps - i know uou are a infp, which means it's totally okay if you take 6 months to reply to this post.

Edit - come to think of it [MENTION=17164]iNtrovert[/MENTION] is good at this too.

 

[Arctic Hysteria]

Ps - i know uou are a infp, which means it's totally okay if you take 6 months to reply to this post.

D'awwwww

 

[Riva]

D'awwwww

I was being serious.

If i didn't mention that she has a tendency to not reply thinking she took too long to reply.

The mental agony of being an infp.

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

Does God exist? Ask him yourself.

If I was God in the flesh and I loved you as you are and I healed you of your disease and I revealed the mysteries of the universe, would you still deny me? “His visage was so marred more than any man.” Isaiah 52:14...

If I walked with you now, would you harshly interrogate me, beat me up, spit on me, mock me, brutally whip me, and make me carry a cross to nail me down and leave me hanging for hours to suffer and die?

...you would. And I still love you with an everlasting love and continue my faithfulness to you.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."

Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light. The Bible does... God simply spoke.

 

[á´…eparted]

Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light.

Turns out the universe might have never had a beginning. It's new research of course so it's not certain, but it's a pretty good lead.

No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

 

[Mole]

Does God exist? Ask him yourself.

If I was God in the flesh and I loved you as you are and I healed you of your disease and I revealed the mysteries of the universe, would you still deny me? “His visage was so marred more than any man.” Isaiah 52:14...

If I walked with you now, would you harshly interrogate me, beat me up, spit on me, mock me, brutally whip me, and make me carry a cross to nail me down and leave me hanging for hours to suffer and die?

...you would. And I still love you with an everlasting love and continue my faithfulness to you.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."

Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light. The Bible does... God simply spoke.

Do you think it is likely that the Christian Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, created the Big Bang?