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  1. #81
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    There are some major differences. If God exists, then that means whoever God has given authority must be listened to. To take a trivial example, Ephesians 6:1 says that children must obey their parents, for this is right. To take another example, Ephesians 5:22 says for wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord.

    On the other hand, if you say that the text is time-bound, then it is all too easy to just drop the text entirely and do whatever you want to. Which might or might not accord with the text's main message, whatever that may be, but it certainly means that the whole idea of God as a relevant voice in our lives is in danger.
    I believe Aesop existed, and therefore if he says it is better to be slow and steady than to be overconfident and put things off to the last minute, that is how we should live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And what we see here on Typology Central is a complete lack of empathy for Isaac.
    There are currently over 20,000 members here on Typology Central. Exactly which ones are you claiming have no empathy for Isaac?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #82
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How is the moral of being obedient to God any different from the moral of having a good work ethic and being kind even to your enemy? All of these are life lessons that the authors, recorders, or repeaters of these stories hope the readers and listeners will glean from them, and none depend on the factual or historical veracity of the accounts themselves.
    Let me expand on my points.

    First, because as my examples intended to show if the God of Israel doesn't exist there are more important things than being obedient to that God such as self-preservation. Getting thrown in a lion's den or in a furnace because you refuse to bow to someone else's non-existent god seems pretty stupid.

    Second, as I stated above the emphasis on obedience is premised on the miracles God had performed. The entire OT is all about God's Covenent to Israel. Israel's obedience is premised on the fact that God first loved them and first rescued them. If that's not the case then there's no reason for obedience to God and behaving as children of a covenant. Even more obviously someone who is non-existent holds no authority and can demand no obedience. We might have learned that Washington was honest from the cherry tree incident, but Washington isn't giving executive orders from the grave.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #83
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I was raised Catholic in a fairly conservative parish, but in 8th grade the "capstone" to our religious education was discussing how the Bible is symbolic, full of parables and allegory, and stories that may or may not have happened, but in all likelihood are meant - as is typically the point of literature - to "show" a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole
    And what we see here on Typology Central is a complete lack of empathy for Isaac.
    The Catholic Church is no stranger to child abuse, sadly, but the Old Testament is full of stories showing God seeming to test people. Isaac's story is one; the story of Job is perhaps the most commonly known. Some people believe that God tests knowingly and willingly to see how strong a person's faith is. In Isaac's story, certainly we can (and I do) empathize with him feeling terrified that he was going to be killed, but he was not in real danger in terms of eternal life. Even if Abraham had followed through with the sacrifice, we can assume Isaac would have immediately been lifted to Heaven as an innocent child whose death served to prove Abraham's faith. It's not pretty, but in the big picture, Isaac would not have been a "tragic" figure because he would immediately be rewarded eternally.

    Me personally, I don't tend to believe in divine testing. For me this story is an example how sometimes we feel called to put ourselves, our families, or the things we care about at risk for something important, and that, in the end, if we're doing it for the right reason, we are often "protected" by a greater good.

    Either way, there is a huge difference between Isaac's circumstances and the plight of abused children - unless someone is deeply mentally ill and believes they are hurting a child for a good reason, in which case both abuser and abused are "victims". There is really no comparing the two situations.

  4. #84
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Me personally, I don't tend to believe in divine testing. For me this story is an example how sometimes we feel called to put ourselves, our families, or the things we care about at risk for something important, and that, in the end, if we're doing it for the right reason, we are often "protected" by a greater good.
    I'm not picking on you specifically, but this is a good example for me to get my point across. Most westerners reject the idea of significance inhering in anything. Significance is a matter of perception in our age. This is probably why my argument about authorial intentions is falling on deaf ears. Yes, you can percieve whatever meaning and symbolism you want from the Bible personally. You can also derive whatever meaning you want from a mud puddle. My point has been that for the most part the Bible was not written with the idea that people would take whatever meaning they could out of it, but as a story about a specific people and their God. So if you do happen to believe in some transcendental reality then you must take each biblical book on it's own and either embrace it as it was intended or reject it. This is how I treat other religions.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #85
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm not picking on you specifically, but this is a good example for me to get my point across. Most westerners reject the idea of significance inhering in anything. Significance is a matter of perception in our age. This is probably why my argument about authorial intentions is falling on deaf ears. Yes, you can percieve whatever meaning and symbolism you want from the Bible personally. You can also derive whatever meaning you want from a mud puddle. My point has been that for the most part the Bible was not written with the idea that people would take whatever meaning they could out of it, but as a story about a specific people and their God. So if you do happen to believe in some transcendental reality then you must take each biblical book on it's own and either embrace it as it was intended or reject it. This is how I treat other religions.
    I don't mind you using my post as an example or you explaining your take - I understand what you're saying, and I think you explained it well - but I do disagree with your last point about transcendental reality - I believe there is a greater force than the Bible's authors necessarily understood, so in terms of "authorial intention", sure, perhaps the humans who wrote the Bible meant it as a story of a people, but in terms of the greatest reality, I choose to believe that the Bible is a divine glimpse written by human hands, just like many other works, and that we ourselves are welcomed by the divine to grasp whatever wisdom we may be able to from it. We were given analytical minds, after all, of a beautiful variety of intellectual differences and perspectives. I don't believe that any one person has the authority to say, my interpretation is correct and yours is wrong. True that some interpretations may be more and less useful, and more and less true to authorial intention, but in the big picture, who are we to dismiss the significance of what others may see in the divine? I would prefer to err on the side of assuming that they are seeing a facet of the divine that I do not yet understand, rather than assuming that I have special knowledge that they don't have access to.

  6. #86
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    this showed up on my facebook feed this morning. I knew cremation was always discouraged in the orthodox church but I didn't know it was considered excommunicating yourself from the church

    Greek Orthodox Church bans religious rites at cremations - Yahoo News

    "The Church does not accept incineration of the body because it is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who expresses the intention to be incinerated confirms their separation from the Church and therefore does not have the right to a religious ceremony," the statement said.
    which makes ton of sense considering that they believe during chrismation the Holy Spirit enters the body

    The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Chrismation - Orthodox Church in America
    In chrismation a person is given the “power from on high” (Acts 1-2), the gift of the Spirit of God, in order to live the new life received in baptism. He is anointed, just as Christ the Messiah is the Anointed One of God. He becomes-as the fathers of the Church dared to put it—a “christ” together with Jesus. Thus, through chrismation we become a “christ,” a son of God, a person upon whom the Holy Spirit dwells, a person in whom the Holy Spirit lives and acts—as long as we want him and cooperate with his powerful and holy inspiration. Thus, it is only after our chrismation that the baptismal procession is made and that we hear the epistle and the gospel of our salvation and illumination in Christ.
    No i'm not proving the existence of god. I thought i'd share that's all.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #87
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are currently over 20,000 members here on Typology Central. Exactly which ones are you claiming have no empathy for Isaac?
    The complete lack of empathy for Isaac reaches far beyond Typology Central. It reaches back in time for 3,000 years, and it reaches today into Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and Islam.

    And the complete lack of empathy infects American culture with their ugly word loser. The American use of this ugly word is particularly striking to us because, although we understand the meaning, we don't use the word ourselves. And loser expresses the contemptuous hatred of the hurt and vulnerable. And is a hallmark of this American life.

    So where does this contemptuous hatred of the hurt and vulnerable come from in Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and Islam and American culture? It comes from the worship of the God of Abraham and the complete lack of empathy for His victim, Isaac.

    And we become what we worship.
    Likes The Wailing Specter liked this post

  8. #88
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Either way, there is a huge difference between Isaac's circumstances and the plight of abused children - unless someone is deeply mentally ill and believes they are hurting a child for a good reason, in which case both abuser and abused are "victims". There is really no comparing the two situations.
    The Irish National Judicial Enquiry into child abuse and the Australian National Royal Commission into child abuse show how entrenched and wide spread is child abuse. This is institutional and cultural child abuse, and is crying out for an explanation.

    Religion purports to explain everything but there is an absence in their explanation of wide spread institutional child abuse. So we go back to the beginning of our Abrahamic religions and we see it as plain as day. It is the worship of a child abusing God and the complete lack of empathy for His victim Isaac. This has given carte blanche for millennia for institutional child abuse, only revealed in the present day by the Governments of Ireland and Australia.

  9. #89
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I believe Aesop existed, and therefore if he says it is better to be slow and steady than to be overconfident and put things off to the last minute, that is how we should live.
    Category error. The implications of the existence of Aesop are not analogous to the implications of the existence of God because God is not a person in the sense that Aesop is a person. God necessitates an idea about how the world works and Aesop does not.

  10. #90
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The Irish National Judicial Enquiry into child abuse and the Australian National Royal Commission into child abuse show how entrenched and wide spread is child abuse. This is institutional and cultural child abuse, and is crying out for an explanation.

    Religion purports to explain everything but there is an absence in their explanation of wide spread institutional child abuse. So we go back to the beginning of our Abrahamic religions and we see it as plain as day. It is the worship of a child abusing God and the complete lack of empathy for His victim Isaac. This has given carte blanche for millennia for institutional child abuse, only revealed in the present day by the Governments of Ireland and Australia.
    I don't get what you are driving at here. Religion can explain child abuse as well or as badly as it can explain anything; it is the forces of evil in man and the devil finding an outlet in innocent victims. Catholicism emphasizes the depravity of man as much as most religions; it certainly doesn't lack for explanations. Whether you accept their explanation's sufficiency is, of course, another matter.

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