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  1. #71
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's a little ambiguous to me to which you're referring. Either way it's not really apples to apples. I just don't think your more modern simpler analogies do any of the books justice on several different levels regardless of belief.
    The point is that, even when the subject or setting of a story has historical basis, the story itself can be factually untrue and have its value instead in teaching a lesson (e.g. "I cannot tell a lie.").
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #72
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The point is that, even when the subject or setting of a story has historical basis, the story itself can be factually untrue and have its value instead in teaching a lesson (e.g. "I cannot tell a lie.").
    Sure. But, if you do that to the Bible you miss 95% of the content, you're still ignoring the intent of the writer (unlike the santa and Washington stories) and maybe most importantly the value of the lessons is significantly lessened or even becomes harmful if there is no factual basis. I understand that you could take a story like Joseph's and see the value of work ethic, kindness to those that have done you wrong, and not sleeping with the boss's wife. However, you have to pick out those types of things and miss the overarching narrative that the writer is creating. Part of that overarching narative is that the morality in the OT revolves around being obedient to the God of Abraham. If that God does not exist and did not do the things that are claimed (over and over the Israelites are told to remember God's miracles that he's done for them) then the heroes of the Israelites are genocidal maniacs when they have power and damned fools when they have none (Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach, Abednigo, etc.).
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it
    Likes The Wailing Specter liked this post

  3. #73
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    do you think that some of the first religions some of the leaders were akin to internet trolls? think about some of them had to just be having a laugh over the whole thing, trolling their tribe and shit.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #74
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    do you think that some of the first religions some of the leaders were akin to internet trolls? think about some of them had to just be having a laugh over the whole thing, trolling their tribe and shit.
    No. They didn't live in a disenchanted secular society full of irony. If they weren't true believers in whatever then they were utilizing religion for personal and familial gain.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #75
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No. They didn't live in a disenchanted secular society full of irony. If they weren't true believers in whatever then they were utilizing religion for personal and familial gain.
    so you lived back then?
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sure. But, if you do that to the Bible you miss 95% of the content, you're still ignoring the intent of the writer (unlike the santa and Washington stories) and maybe most importantly the value of the lessons is significantly lessened or even becomes harmful if there is no factual basis. I understand that you could take a story like Joseph's and see the value of work ethic, kindness to those that have done you wrong, and not sleeping with the boss's wife. However, you have to pick out those types of things and miss the overarching narrative that the writer is creating. Part of that overarching narative is that the morality in the OT revolves around being obedient to the God of Abraham. If that God does not exist and did not do the things that are claimed (over and over the Israelites are told to remember God's miracles that he's done for them) then the heroes of the Israelites are genocidal maniacs when they have power and damned fools when they have none (Daniel, Shadrach, Mishach, Abednigo, etc.).
    Historically a good case can be made for the highlighted. When I was studying Old Testament in earnest, it seemed to me that when things were going well for the Israelites, they would claim that God was on their side. Conversely when the tide went against them, it must have been because they had disobeyed God somehow. Not sure whether to call this wishful thinking, self-fulfilling prophecy, or simply misplaced cause/effect relationships. Still, it made for a good motivational story, both for contemporaries and future generations.

    How is the moral of being obedient to God any different from the moral of having a good work ethic and being kind even to your enemy? All of these are life lessons that the authors, recorders, or repeaters of these stories hope the readers and listeners will glean from them, and none depend on the factual or historical veracity of the accounts themselves.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #77
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How is the moral of being obedient to God any different from the moral of having a good work ethic and being kind even to your enemy? All of these are life lessons that the authors, recorders, or repeaters of these stories hope the readers and listeners will glean from them, and none depend on the factual or historical veracity of the accounts themselves.
    There are some major differences. If God exists, then that means whoever God has given authority must be listened to. To take a trivial example, Ephesians 6:1 says that children must obey their parents, for this is right. To take another example, Ephesians 5:22 says for wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord.

    On the other hand, if you say that the text is time-bound, then it is all too easy to just drop the text entirely and do whatever you want to. Which might or might not accord with the text's main message, whatever that may be, but it certainly means that the whole idea of God as a relevant voice in our lives is in danger.

  8. #78
    Problem? Grand Admiral Crunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    There are some major differences. If God exists, then that means whoever God has given authority must be listened to. To take a trivial example, Ephesians 6:1 says that children must obey their parents, for this is right. To take another example, Ephesians 5:22 says for wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord.
    Examining the story of Adam and Eve, Adam is supposed to make sure Eve doesn't eat the fruit. Adam tells Eve "don't even touch it," which is adding to God's law and is condescending to Eve. Adam screws up in various ways, even blaming Eve for his mistake in eating it. But Eve blames the snake. So, when God is explaining the natural consequences of their actions, he tells Eve the snake will be nipping at her heals. Why? Because she correctly blamed the snake.

    This sets up the attitude toward women going forward. We can expect the men to be inserting condescension towards women throughout the bible, despite that message not coming from God. And, this negates the idea that God gave men authority over women; it is just Satan's influence on men.

  9. #79
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDarkSide View Post
    Examining the story of Adam and Eve, Adam is supposed to make sure Eve doesn't eat the fruit. Adam tells Eve "don't even touch it," which is adding to God's law and is condescending to Eve. Adam screws up in various ways, even blaming Eve for his mistake in eating it. But Eve blames the snake. So, when God is explaining the natural consequences of their actions, he tells Eve the snake will be nipping at her heals. Why? Because she correctly blamed the snake.

    This sets up the attitude toward women going forward. We can expect the men to be inserting condescension towards women throughout the bible, despite that message not coming from God. And, this negates the idea that God gave men authority over women; it is just Satan's influence on men.
    Does it? That's certainly one interpretation.

  10. #80
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    A brick is not a wall. I doubt either of us are so influential. Still, people may pick up a piece of our perspective and fit it into their own.

    I don't recall seeing sarcasm like this from you, at least not in response to me. However, avoiding the content of my argument when you're just making a mere assertion is nothing new.
    We learnt from the nine year Irish National Judicial Enquiry into child abuse, and now from the Australian National Royal Commission into child abuse, that child abusers and their powerful institutions lack any empathy for the victims of child abuse.

    And what we see here on Typology Central is a complete lack of empathy for Isaac.

    We shouldn't be surprised about this as three major world religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, have shown no empathy for Isaac over millennia.

    So Typology Central, along with three major world religions, takes child abuse for granted.

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