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  1. #61
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We are not talking about the tortoise and the hare, we are talking about God ordering Abraham to tie up his son Isaac on a sacrificial altar and stand over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut him up alive.
    They are equivalent in that both are morality tales, though the morals are quite different. I brought up our friend Aesop because sometimes it is easier to understand an abstract concept when illustrated by a simpler example.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #62
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    They are equivalent in that both are morality tales, though the morals are quite different. I brought up our friend Aesop because sometimes it is easier to understand an abstract concept when illustrated by a simpler example.
    They're not morality tales in the same sense. They're two different types of literature. The difference is the intention of the authors. Aesop's fables were meant to be merely allegory while the story of Abraham was intended to be historical. You can interpret them however you want, but you must be aware that in the case of Abraham you're rejecting the intention of the author.

    You could argue that job and a few other stories were merely allegorical, but not stories revolving around the line of Abraham which is followed generation after generation.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #63
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    This is the type of the debate that never ends. Both sides have their "proofs" but then the existential philosopher walks in and says, "What if we are all imagining this and it's not even happening. Like at all." and blah blah
    But I like to debate it a little here and there but more times than not it's just a waste of time. In the end - a believer is not changing his mind. A non-believer is not changing his. And then the next day starts all over again.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  4. #64
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    They're not morality tales in the same sense. They're two different types of literature. The difference is the intention of the authors. Aesop's fables were meant to be merely allegory while the story of Abraham was intended to be historical. You can interpret them however you want, but you must be aware that in the case of Abraham you're rejecting the intention of the author.

    You could argue that job and a few other stories were merely allegorical, but not stories revolving around the line of Abraham which is followed generation after generation.
    I think @Coriolis makes a valid point. Otherwise, are you saying that you believe that the story of Abraham is fact? That he did intend to kill his child but God called out and stopped him? That, that is fact? But a turtle and a bunny racing is too far-fetched to be a fact?

  5. #65
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think @Coriolis makes a valid point. Otherwise, are you saying that you believe that the story of Abraham is fact? That he did intend to kill his child but God called out and stopped him? That, that is fact? But a turtle and a bunny racing is too far-fetched to be a fact?
    I'm saying they're two different genres. Genre is a matter of style and not believability. You may believe the writer or not.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #66
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    So strange that you obsess over an event where God DIDN'T kill someone when he's responsible for 150,000 people dying every day.
    You make an interesting point, as you often do, dear Beorn.

    But I stress Abraham because there are not one, not two, but three Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    Abraham is the father of three major world religions.

    But look at Abraham from his son, Isaac's perspective - on the command of God Isaac is tied up on the sacrificial altar with his father standing over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut Isaac up alive. Imagine how Isaac felt. This is pure and simple child abuse.

    Yes, three major world religions are based on child abuse.

    And everyday in our National Royal Commission into Institutional child abuse we see how these three, yes all three, major religions abuse children today.

    And as child rearing practices form the basis of personality, I would hope this site devoted to personality would publicly recognise this rather than continuing to cover it up.
    Likes The Wailing Specter liked this post

  7. #67
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You make an interesting point, as you often do, dear Beorn.

    But I stress Abraham because there are not one, not two, but three Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    Abraham is the father of three major world religions.

    But look at Abraham from his son, Isaac's perspective - on the command of God Isaac is tied up on the sacrificial altar with his father standing over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut Isaac up alive. Imagine how Isaac felt. This is pure and simple child abuse.

    Yes, three major world religions are based on child abuse.

    And everyday in our National Royal Commission into Institutional child abuse we see how these three, yes all three, major religions abuse children today.

    And as child rearing practices form the basis of personality, I would hope this site devoted to personality would publicly recognise this rather than continuing to cover it up.
    Yes, I'm sure we'd be much better off today if the child sacrificing worshipers of moloch had ruled the day and triumphed over the abrahamic religions which spared their children the knife and the fire.

    How many babies would have died if not for the story of Abraham?

    I hate repeating this conversation, but I hate even more the idea of anyone being taken in by your anachronistic and out of context analysis.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #68
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I hate even more the idea of anyone being taken in by your anachronistic and out of context analysis.
    I of course love anyone who is taken in by my anachronistic and out of context analysis. Who are these people? Announce yourselves, explain to everyone else how you manage to suspend your disbelief no matter how anachronistic my analysis is, nor how out of context. Who could resist you? You are irresistible.

  9. #69
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You could argue that job and a few other stories were merely allegorical, but not stories revolving around the line of Abraham which is followed generation after generation.
    Like the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, or better yet - the legend of Santa Claus?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes The Wailing Specter liked this post

  10. #70
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I of course love anyone who is taken in by my anachronistic and out of context analysis. Who are these people? Announce yourselves, explain to everyone else how you manage to suspend your disbelief no matter how anachronistic my analysis is, nor how out of context. Who could resist you? You are irresistible.
    A brick is not a wall. I doubt either of us are so influential. Still, people may pick up a piece of our perspective and fit it into their own.

    I don't recall seeing sarcasm like this from you, at least not in response to me. However, avoiding the content of my argument when you're just making a mere assertion is nothing new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Like the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, or better yet - the legend of Santa Claus?
    It's a little ambiguous to me to which you're referring. Either way it's not really apples to apples. I just don't think your more modern simpler analogies do any of the books justice on several different levels regardless of belief.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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