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  1. #41
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I actually think it's more important to understand the question itself. It poses itself as some sort of philosophical question, but it's actually a political one. And it's between two specific factions of people, the ones that this answer matters to the most. Is it rational, is it righteous to put so much emphasis on the answer to this specific question? Strangely enough, there are plenty religious and non-religious who don't think so. The question feels provincial to me, and as time goes on I think it will become more so to tha internets.
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  2. #42
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If you were better informed you would think differently. At least I hope you would.
    This is indeed why I come here, my dear Lark, I come here in the hope you will better inform me. Don't be shy. Point out where I am wrong. Point out the faults in my tone. And instead put me on a better path. What better work could you do than to reach out across the globe and offer a helping hand to an antipodean.
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  3. #43
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    .... getting back to the Flood briefly, my assessment is that it's likely there was a local flood of huge significance (since it is reflected in various cultural myth/storytelling), but the evidence isn't there to support global flooding and seems physically unlikely due to all the constraints of ark-creation + acquiring and keeping that variety of animals in a fairly isolated environment.

    [Even Aronofsky tried to deal with this in "Noah," he actually put all the animals on the boat to sleep using some kind of inhaled drug, although I have no idea what that would have been that Noah could have actually concocted...]
    IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe. You don't have to accept these lessons, but their value does not depend on their literal veracity. No one discounts the morals of Aesop's fables just because there really wasn't a foot race between a tortoise and a hare.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe.
    They had absolutely no idea of our place in the universe. They did not know the Earth was round. They did not know the Earth went round the Sun. They had no idea the Sun was part of the Milky Way galaxy with 100 billion stars. And they had no idea there are 100 billion galaxies.

    And with an absolute ignorance of our place in the physical universe you want us to believe they knew our place in the moral universe.

    In fact they were so moral they practised child sacrifice, the enslavement of women, war, rape, torture and killing, were prevalent. All santified by totally ignorant, immoral religious stories.
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  5. #45
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    They had absolutely no idea of our place in the universe. They did not know the Earth was round. They did not know the Earth went round the Sun. They had no idea the Sun was part of the Milky Way galaxy with 100 billion stars. And they had no idea there are 100 billion galaxies.

    And with an absolute ignorance of our place in the physical universe you want us to believe they knew our place in the moral universe.

    In fact they were so moral they practised child sacrifice, the enslavement of women, war, rape, torture and killing, were prevalent. All santified by totally ignorant, immoral religious stories.
    Don't tell me what I want you to believe. You don't know that. I am pointing out the nature of the questions that stories like these are capable of addressing. That distinction is independent of how well you or anyone likes the answers. You don't have to agree with "slow and steady wins the race" to recognize it as the moral of the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare, whether or not their footrace actually happened.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #46
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    There is no point in debating god's existence rationally. It's a spiritual and belief-based commitment. By that I mean Faith. I used to be atheist and argue against the existence of a god, because I thought the belief itself was not logical. But the belief in the existence of god is not based on a rational conclusion, the basis of god isn't logical or rational. It's intuitive and spiritual. I can never say that god exists logically or rationally for me. I've never experienced god that way. But I can say that I've experienced god intuitively and spiritually. You can say that my perception itself is influenced by placebo-like affect of belief, you can say that it's some form of vague mental process. But to me god is faith based commitment. And if people insist and defer in belief, I'm fine with that. It's really a matter of faith.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe. You don't have to accept these lessons, but their value does not depend on their literal veracity. No one discounts the morals of Aesop's fables just because there really wasn't a foot race between a tortoise and a hare.
    Yeah, of course I agree with this and have made these same points myself for some years. It's what I also have taught my children.

    I'm arguing in the framework where a certain very vocal and influential segment of Christian faith in the US is demanding that these stories be literally true and has an "all or nothing" view (e.g., "if they aren't literally true, what value are they?"), and their demands radiate into various sectors of daily life and politics.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  8. #48
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I wish the jews had secretly written an religious text after the christians came out making fun of the christians. oh this sounds horrible, but i don't mean in a bad way just in a rib jabbing jolly good time way.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  9. #49
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    There is no point in debating god's existence rationally. It's a spiritual and belief-based commitment. By that I mean Faith. I used to be atheist and argue against the existence of a god, because I thought the belief itself was not logical. But the belief in the existence of god is not based on a rational conclusion, the basis of god isn't logical or rational. It's intuitive and spiritual. I can never say that god exists logically or rationally for me. I've never experienced god that way. But I can say that I've experienced god intuitively and spiritually. You can say that my perception itself is influenced by placebo-like affect of belief, you can say that it's some form of vague mental process. But to me god is faith based commitment. And if people insist and defer in belief, I'm fine with that. It's really a matter of faith.
    Do you believe in a supreme being who directly influences reality?
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  10. #50
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, of course I agree with this and have made these same points myself for some years. It's what I also have taught my children.

    I'm arguing in the framework where a certain very vocal and influential segment of Christian faith in the US is demanding that these stories be literally true and has an "all or nothing" view (e.g., "if they aren't literally true, what value are they?"), and their demands radiate into various sectors of daily life and politics.
    That said, I believe that the morals found in that book come from an earlier time and should never be used as a main arguement for goodness.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

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