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At what point does a fetus become a human being?

MJ_

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(And for the sake of argument, no one can tell another person what they do or do not consent to. Consent must be freely given).

Doesn't engaging in sex (assuming a person knows what the possible consequences could be) imply consent?

No. Consenting to sex does not mean a person consents to continuing a pregnancy. If a person decides that they will continue any unplanned pregnancy because they had sex and understood the risks involved, that is still consent. They made a decision, but its not a decision that everyone makes the same way. Like I said, you can't tell people what they do or do not consent to.
 

reason

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Oberon,

A definition cannot be established by 'empirical criteria'. The definition of 'human being' is no different. There are innumerably many ways of carving up the universe with language, and particular ways can only be better or worse with respect to their usefulness for particular ends, insofar that 'empirical criteria' are imortant it is only in the evaluation of how useful the distinctions which definitions carve are--evaluations which depend heavily upon the arbitrary choice of what they are to be used for.
 
O

Oberon

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A definition cannot be established by 'empirical criteria'.

No, but our conduct can.

EDIT: By this I mean that I agree with you that the definition of what is a "human being" cannot be established by 'empirical criteria.' That is why I prefer to not attempt to do so. If we establish that some human organisms are non-people, we find ourselves at sea in a morass of 'empirical criteria.'

Better to avoid that trap and decide that humans are prima facia people. Or are we going to fall into the old tribal habit of deciding that "Us" is people, and those who do not resemble "Us" are non-people?
 

murkrow

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No. Consenting to sex does not mean a person consents to continuing a pregnancy. If a person decides that they will continue any unplanned pregnancy because they had sex and understood the risks involved, that is still consent. They made a decision, but its not a decision that everyone makes the same way. Like I said, you can't tell people what they do or do not consent to.

Not with the current laws it doesn't. But should society enforce sex as a contract of responsibility for any resulting child, it would be.

What argument is there for not having such a contract in place?
 

ajblaise

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As long as the fetus directly depends on the mother to exist, they should be allowed to abort it. After it is born, that is when it should gain rights as a human being.
 

murkrow

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Oberon,

A definition cannot be established by 'empirical criteria'. The definition of 'human being' is no different. There are innumerably many ways of carving up the universe with language, and particular ways can only be better or worse with respect to their usefulness for particular ends, insofar that 'empirical criteria' are imortant it is only in the evaluation of how useful the distinctions which definitions carve are--evaluations which depend heavily upon the arbitrary choice of what they are to be used for.

The dilemma is not whether the invocation of the term "human being" is always referring to a fetus as well as a breathing human, the dilemma is whether the specific use of the term in the field of human rights refers to them.

We are not attempting to enforce this definition on every use of the term, only a very specific one.
 

murkrow

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As long as the fetus directly depends on the mother to exist, they should be allowed to abort it. After it is born, that is when it should gain rights as a human being.

I love your reasoning.
 

MJ_

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Well, let's turn the question around. Should temporary theft of these resources be a capital crime?

Its not temporary. Women don't get back their iron reserves (well, some of them if they eat their own placenta, if they've gestated far enough along), their calcium stores ('one tooth for every child' used to be the saying, IIRC). They don't get back the extra nutrients they took in to maintain a pregnancy. Its not as though 'stolen goods' are returned to a woman after they're recovered in a pawn shop, no worse for wear.

Theft also implies that the fetus/human had intentions of stealing or the mental capacity to understand what 'theft' is. To prosecute a human for theft would require that a person be of age to understand what 'theft' was and why it is wrong. This isn't the case at all.
 

alcea rosea

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I would say that a fetus is a human being from the start but philosophically I would say that when a featus gets his/hers first thought. I have no idea when that happens.
 

Homini Lupus

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The moment the fetus can be considered a person, I think abortion becomes a murder, the means and rationalisations of it don't count. A person is responsible for the lives of those who he can save and abortion would fall in the same cathegory as letting a person die without helping because we didn't want to use resources (time or else) to save it. I think anyway that whenever the mother is in danger she should be allowed to abort.
 

Ivy

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This upsetting of the applecart thing works both ways, BTW. Most opponents of abortion clearly do not think of embryos as completely equal to born babies or they would not make exceptions for rape and incest. Pregnancy is just different, and trying to make it fit the mold of our ethical expectations of interpersonal relationships is an exercise in folly. It's a unique human experience and should be treated as such.

Can you tell I ride the fence here? As usual.
 
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Oberon

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Its not temporary. Women don't get back their iron reserves (well, some of them if they eat their own placenta, if they've gestated far enough along), their calcium stores ('one tooth for every child' used to be the saying, IIRC). They don't get back the extra nutrients they took in to maintain a pregnancy. Its not as though 'stolen goods' are returned to a woman after they're recovered in a pawn shop, no worse for wear.

Theft also implies that the fetus/human had intentions of stealing or the mental capacity to understand what 'theft' is. To prosecute a human for theft would require that a person be of age to understand what 'theft' was and why it is wrong. This isn't the case at all.

All right then, let me restate it thus: Should this injustice to the mother be righted by capital punishment? Is the mother's right to her own nutrients and organ function more important than the life of the human organism that will die without them?

I do not think that it is.
 

MJ_

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All right then, let me restate it thus: Should this injustice to the mother be righted by capital punishment? Is the mother's right to her own nutrients and organ function more important than the life of the human organism that will die without them?

I do not think that it is.

You are of course, welcome to your opinion.

I think I have the right to control what goes on in my own body. I think you have the same right to the security of your own person. Hypothetically, you could evict a homeless man from your remote cabin in a snowstorm to a certain death by exposure and not go to jail for murder. Because after all, you were merely protecting your own property. I wish my own uterus (which I am kind of attached to, understandably) to have the same protection as someone else's unheated hunting lodge.

I am perfectly capable of weighing the moral and ethical implications, medical risks, financial considerations, and my emotional readiness with respect to continuing or terminating a pregnancy (or using hormonal birth control or a copper IUD). I trust other women to make their own decisions. I don't think I had any right to use my mother's nutrients and organ function without consent, as wonderful as it is to be on this earth. I don't think that anyone does.

Perhaps you could look at your own navel and think of your own mother?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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At what point a fetus becomes a human being would depend on one's definition of a human being.

Does there have to be a "point" at which this occurs?

It is interesting how relentlessly human beings create dividing lines and categories. This is especially true in Western European thought. Whether it is dividing the lines of property into square mile fields, dividing pitch into equidistant half steps, rhythm into pulses, religion into denominations, politics into parties, the light spectrum into specific "colors", or personality into 16 types, the process is the same. We create a lower resolution of reality so that we can more easily deal with complexity. In reality these points of division are artificial. The limitation of this approach to processing information comes to the foreground when asking the most important questions like "when does human life begin?".
 
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Oberon

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Perhaps you could look at your own navel and think of your own mother?

My own mother put me up for adoption as a newborn. I know very little about my biological parents, except that they were married and both associated with a university in Maryland.

Mom, if you're out there, thanks for carrying me to term.

As for you, MJ, thank you for fighting for Mom's right to have had me diced instead. :rolli:
 

Homini Lupus

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The point in wich not giving help to those in need becomes homicide depends on the legal system. And even if mother's body is hers, the fetus is 50% product of someone else who in any case should have his part on the decision. Secondly, the role of a state is to defend their citizens from external and internal threats so prohibition of abortion wouldn't be inconsistent with its role. The decision of abortion has effect on at least two person's propriety (mother and father) and probably three or more (child/ren).

BTW the fact that we were born from our mothers has no effect on the theoretical considerations.
 

MJ_

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Mom, if you're out there, thanks for carrying me to term.

I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."
 
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Oberon

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I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."

"What you're supposed to do" and "sacrifice" are not mutually exclusive. In fact, when it comes to parenthood, they overlap considerably.

You've never been a parent, have you. I hesitate to recommend it to you.
 

alcea rosea

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I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."

What a weird thought: what you were supposed to do
What do you mean by that? Supposed to? Supposed to?
 
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