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  1. #81
    Senior Member sketcheasy's Avatar
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    a logic based moral system? morality is an issue of ethics. it is a matter of philosophy. yes, there is logic too it, but even non-religious moral philosophies aren't entirely logic based. moral relativism itself is a highly self-contradicting ethical stance on many levels to the point of even being self-defeating. it does not address a point of reference nor does it give a sufficient explanation as to what morality is, where it comes from, and why it is there.

    i will not argue that there are moral grounds that can justify killing another human being. and i the issue of zygotes to me is a bit gray, but i will not concede that a fetus is in fact human. it has a beating heart and is consistent with the conventional definitions for life with the exception of reproduction, which won't even develop til the child reaches puberty anyway. to kill it merely because i don't want it, doesn't seem morally sound because it could give me ethical grounds to say, because i don't like you i can kill you. i'm sure you will agree that merely wanting the death of someone that is alive does not justify killing.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    There are no empirical tests which can be brought to bear on the question of when a feotus becomes a human being, since what is being implicitly argued over is the definition of the words 'human being', and definitions are established by convention. In other words, the two parties in the debate are defining the term 'human being' differently, according to different conventions. The debate is ethical, not semantic or scientific, about what properties must an organism have before it is wrong to destroy it? To argue about "essential" definition of 'human being' is a distraction, and it is not something which can be established by any empirical test.
    Someone that makes sense. Thank you.

  3. #83
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Here is a question we might ask someone from China or India. Is it inethical to abort a fetus because it is a girl?
    I'm jumping in rather late, but anyway...

    Sex determination tests themselves are illegal in India. (I don't know about China). That way you are free to abort your child, but you will never know whether it was a male or female fetus.

    This law is, however, flouted with alarming regularity. There are plenty of illegal sex determination tests, and the fetus is often aborted if it's a girl.

    Abortion in India has been legal for a long time, upto the 12th week of pregnancy. After 15 weeks it's allowed if the fetus or the mother is at risk, and after 20 weeks it is allowed only if the mother is at risk. There was never too much of an abortion debate in India. The law was decidedly pro-choice, and there was never any controversy over the life of the fetus.
    The mother was always given first preference.

    Recently, however, a mother with a 25 week old fetus which had a congenital heart defect appealed to the court to be able to abort the fetus. After quite an extensive medical, philosophical and legal debate, the court dismissed the plea, primarily because there was a possibility that the child could live with a pacemaker.

    Since then, there's been a debate about abortion. Why do we think that it's okay to abort a 12 week old fetus but not one who is older? These divisions were purely arbitrary ones. Either you say that life begins at conception, or that life begins at birth.

    I am pro-choice. I might not ever want to undergo abortion myself because I would not feel good about it, but I think every woman should have the right to choose.

  4. #84
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    So would you consider it inethical to abort a fetus because it is a girl? Why or why not?
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  5. #85
    Senior Member Ishida's Avatar
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    At conception or never.
    What a waste of life..

  6. #86
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sriv View Post
    The only point of classifying something under "human being" is that a human being has rights.

    Some say that a fetus is a bunch of cells that cannot be considered "alive" whereas a human being is alive.
    A human being is a bunch of cells... one could say that human being (being human) is merely an emergent property of the life that our compositional cells have.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  7. #87
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So would you consider it inethical to abort a fetus because it is a girl? Why or why not?
    In India, there's a huge problem with patriarchy and male chauvinism, particularly amongst poorer families.... daughters are viewed as major burdens, because one must feed and raise them only to give them away with dowries at the time of their marriage... any sexual "impropriety" before marriage, even if it doesn't result in a pregnancy, often ruins a girl's chances at having a good marriage set up for her by her family, because virginity is seen as necessary for a decent marriage. so, female children are often seen as liabilities... male children, on the other hand, are not at risk of getting pregnant even if they do have sex before marriage, their sexual improprieties are far less harshly judged, they bring in the dowries that avaricious in-laws demand from the brides' parents, and they carry on the family name to boot.

    Because men have so much more freedom than women, in most places in India and the rest of the subcontinent of India, and they are seen as financially less draining, many poor parents-to-be will try to determine the sex of their baby, through amniocentesis, and then abort the child if it's a girl. That's why aborting female children is illegal in India: the government's simultaneously trying to curb the growing imbalance of male versus female populations while working on women's equality in more places than just in major cities.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  8. #88
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    A professor I once had (a huge crush on) a class with characterized an embryo/fetus as a human becoming. God he was hot.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #89
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    everything is becoming
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #90
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    In India....
    Heh you did the same thing as edel weiss. You explained the cultural situation in India while avoiding the question.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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