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  1. #61
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It seems reasonable enough to me to attempt to understand each moment of development of a fetus without forcing it into an arbitrary category of being human or not. Questions like when a fetus feels pain, or when they are viable outside the womb, should not be ways of defining if the fetus is "human". A preconceived notion of category can too easily distort perception of information. Even a newborn is not understood as being "self aware". Development is ongoing as a continuum. Why can't a six week fetus be exactly that? Why does it have to either be human or not? All or nothing thinking doesn't fit the model of human development imo. Using spermicide and having a third trimester abortion both destroy a potential, viable human being, but it would seem that the former is less of a violation of a life. Perhaps the question of abortion can be one of gradually coming closer to killing. Destroying a two-week fetus is less of an act of killing than destroying a two-month fetus because of where it falls on the continuum of development. Just like using spermicide is less of an act of killing than destroying a two-week fetus. With this approach there is no dividing line between guilt or innocence because it is all relative. Everything is tainted to varying degrees. What do you think?
    Interesting.
    So killling a two-month fetus deserves as much penalty as intentionally chopping an adult's leg off?
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  2. #62
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    There are no empirical tests which can be brought to bear on the question of when a feotus becomes a human being, since what is being implicitly argued over is the definition of the words 'human being', and definitions are established by convention. In other words, the two parties in the debate are defining the term 'human being' differently, according to different conventions. The debate is ethical, not semantic or scientific, about what properties must an organism have before it is wrong to destroy it? To argue about "essential" definition of 'human being' is a distraction, and it is not something which can be established by any empirical test.
    This is absolutely correct.

    And is also a great undergirdle as to why religion and science are alogical entities to compare.


    As a peculiar forbearance to the logical measurement of unlike subjects, is it ever reasonable to compare a concept against anything but itself?

  3. #63
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sooo taking the day after pill is capital murder?
    It all depends on who you consider to be the authority with rights to make that judgment.

    I don't know of any laws that cover the use of the day after pill, so legally you are probably ok. But for those that hold to a higher authority (ie God), it might be a problem.

    I personally would have a problem with the day after pill, since I consider that human life begins at conception. I would consider it murder, but don't expect nor request any governmental laws be enacted regarding it.

  4. #64
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    It all depends on who you consider to be the authority with rights to make that judgment.

    I don't know of any laws that cover the use of the day after pill, so legally you are probably ok. But for those that hold to a higher authority (ie God), it might be a problem.
    Yours is a great example of the disconnect many experience when trying to deal with problems of ethical opacity.

    In truth, the dilemma is one of flaccid legislative temperament, rather than failure of creativity within the individual.

    Ethics are ideologies that represent the present status quo; the will of the union. Beliefs that have an element of cultural jurisprudence are often ethical in nature. What is ethical to a Romanian citizen might not be ethical to an Australian.

    As a legal division, abortion is not a question of morality.

    Ethics are only as good as the present throne allows them to be.
    It falls on the shoulders of the system of government to decide what is ethical and what isn't.

  5. #65
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    I can't believe you all ignored my relating of socialism to pregnancy.
    wails from the crypt.

  6. #66
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    I can't believe you all ignored my relating of socialism to pregnancy.
    Why can't you believe it?

  7. #67
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    It was so solid...
    wails from the crypt.

  8. #68
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Perhaps disbelief is what fueled their oversight.

    Would you mind clarifying your point?

  9. #69
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    At what point does a fetus become a human being?
    Never, if I have anything to say about it! Haha, I kid, I kid! Wait, no I don't! And THAT's what I'm talkin' about! Ahahaha, but seriously folks, get abortions.

  10. #70
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    A society that accepts the acquisition of resources from unwilling parties to support social programs designed to ameliorate human life should have no problem enforcing the donation of a female's bodily resources for the cause of keeping a human being alive.
    wails from the crypt.

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