User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 104

  1. #41
    Member MJ_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFj
    Posts
    72

    Default

    You've never been a parent, have you. I hesitate to recommend it to you.
    It isn't for everyone.

  2. #42
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    It isn't for everyone.
    I could not have said it better myself.

    With that, I think I'm finished here.

  3. #43
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    1,211

    Default

    There are no empirical tests which can be brought to bear on the question of when a feotus becomes a human being, since what is being implicitly argued over is the definition of the words 'human being', and definitions are established by convention. In other words, the two parties in the debate are defining the term 'human being' differently, according to different conventions. The debate is ethical, not semantic or scientific, about what properties must an organism have before it is wrong to destroy it? To argue about "essential" definition of 'human being' is a distraction, and it is not something which can be established by any empirical test.

    The controversy primarily concerns whether or not organisms like humans have a soul, and if so, when that soul enters the growing feotus. That said, though I am opposed to abortion, I am about as comfortable living in a country with abortion as one without, in a not so unsimilar way that I am as comfortable living in a country with capital punishment as without. There needs to be some convention, and I do not have any particular strong preference either way. I am not always a fan of democracy, but I think that questions such as these are best left to the democratic process. Of course, not everyone will get their own way, but that is the price which is paid for living in a civil society.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #44
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This upsetting of the applecart thing works both ways, BTW. Most opponents of abortion clearly do not think of embryos as completely equal to born babies or they would not make exceptions for rape and incest.
    Yes.

    I always found it interesting in the OT law: Attacking a pregnant woman in a way that caused her to miscarry her baby was considered a crime... but not a murder.

    The culprit was expected to pay the father a particular price, to compensate him for the loss of the child. That was it.

    Note that in that particular culture, murder -- the assault and killing of another human being -- was punished by death. The killing of the baby in utero was not considered a murder even if the intent had been to harm the mother.

    Again, yes... morally confusing since Christian beliefs (often with OT foundations) play such a substantial part in the abortion debates in the United States.

    I think that the attempt to separate sex from procreation (and our ability to do so with our increased technology) has also made the dilemma harder. People nowadays rather expect to be able to have sex without a pregnancy occurring, so when one happens, it's considered to be the "anomaly" and not the given.

    When people viewed pregnancy as a natural consequence of having sex, they were more careful about having sex or more open to the pregnancy, avoiding the need for abortion.

    Is it realistic to view sex as separate from the conception of human life? As if we "have a right to have sex without conceiving"? I don't know.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
    Member MJ_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFj
    Posts
    72

    Default

    What a weird thought: what you were supposed to do
    What do you mean by that? Supposed to? Supposed to?
    Oberon has stated that he believes that abortion is essentially capital punishment/murder. (Correct me if I'm wrong here). I expect that he believes that abortion is wrong in many situations. Carrying a child to term may be what one is 'supposed to do' in Oberon's eyes, or in the viewpoint of many people.

    I think I've contributed to a lot of thread drift (as well as delving into Oberon's personal life, which I should not have. My apologies go to Oberon, if he will accept them).

    Going back to the original topic, I think 'when does a fetus become human' isn't the crux of the debate, for reasons I have stated. Arguably, the zygote is human, the embryo is human, and fetus is human. Not a fully developed adult, but capable of becoming one. Though they may be special and have no real equivalents in any other medical or ethical or moral situation, I don't believe they deserve any rights that other persons don't have.

    I think it is best to leave the philosophical and moral questions up to the people who must consider them in their own personal lives, and leave the law out of it. I don't think anyone wants the legal power of the state compelling anyone to have an abortion or use birth control. In my own personal view, I don't think the state should be able to forbid it either.

    These are with the words of a Canadian Supreme court justice, on the R. vs Morgentaler (1988) decision.
    The decision whether to terminate a pregnancy is essentially a moral decision, a matter of conscience. I do not think there is or can be any dispute about that. The question is: whose conscience? Is the conscience of the woman to be paramount or the conscience of the state? I believe, for the reasons I gave in discussing the right to liberty, that in a free and democratic society it must be the conscience of the individual.

  6. #46
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    Oberon has stated that he believes that abortion is essentially capital punishment/murder. (Correct me if I'm wrong here). I expect that he believes that abortion is wrong in many situations. Carrying a child to term may be what one is 'supposed to do' in Oberon's eyes, or in the viewpoint of many people.

    I think I've contributed to a lot of thread drift (as well as delving into Oberon's personal life, which I should not have. My apologies go to Oberon, if he will accept them).
    Two things:
    1. You should avoid putting comments in other people's mouths (as you're doing with Oberon). There's no need to do that, and as far as I can tell (knowing him for 15 years or so), his actual position is a bit different than what you've tried to state here.
    2. If you want to apologize to Oberon, PM him direct because I think he's left this thread due to the direction the thread took.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    1,635

    Default

    Do you accept that abortion is homicide?

    I agree that the morality of it is ambiguous, however if we can accept that abortion is a homicidal action then we can start to discuss methods of stemming such wanton use of killing.

    Most people who have abortions performed on the humans inside them don't consider the fact that it is infanticide, and I truly doubt that the same amount of abortions would be had were such and understanding to be reached.

    Furthermore, even though the morality is ambiguous, I am not convinced a clear decision is impossible.

    What is the difference between my money being taxed for the support of a health care system that I consent to simply by being a citizen of Canada but do not support ideologically and a woman's body being siphoned away for the good of a human she conceived? Both actions which brought about the loss of resources were not the direct choices of the loser.

    If the Canadian government is going to support a society based on the mutual sacrifice of economic freedom for the health of all it's citizens, why should it not also support the sacrifice of nutrients for the life of a future citizen?

    You will probably claim that the future aspect of the fetus' citizenship means that it earns no protection from the government, but I am obviously advocating a thorough overhaul of the system for attributing rights to newborn humans.
    wails from the crypt.

  8. #48
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Here is a question we might ask someone from China or India. Is it inethical to abort a fetus because it is a girl?
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  9. #49
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    6,727

    Default

    A fetus is always a human being. Well, assuming we're talking about a human fetus.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

  10. #50
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    A human being is defined as an "individual of the genus Homo". Since the fetus is connected to and relies on the mothers body, are they an individual? I wouldn't say so.

Similar Threads

  1. At what point do you stop trying to grow and just accept your type?
    By Usehername in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-29-2011, 12:28 AM
  2. How one becomes a human being?
    By Hine in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 03-09-2011, 11:27 AM
  3. At what point does a good person...
    By Kiddo in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 08-07-2008, 10:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO