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  1. #31
    Junior Member Homini Lupus's Avatar
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    The moment the fetus can be considered a person, I think abortion becomes a murder, the means and rationalisations of it don't count. A person is responsible for the lives of those who he can save and abortion would fall in the same cathegory as letting a person die without helping because we didn't want to use resources (time or else) to save it. I think anyway that whenever the mother is in danger she should be allowed to abort.

  2. #32
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This upsetting of the applecart thing works both ways, BTW. Most opponents of abortion clearly do not think of embryos as completely equal to born babies or they would not make exceptions for rape and incest. Pregnancy is just different, and trying to make it fit the mold of our ethical expectations of interpersonal relationships is an exercise in folly. It's a unique human experience and should be treated as such.

    Can you tell I ride the fence here? As usual.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #33
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    Its not temporary. Women don't get back their iron reserves (well, some of them if they eat their own placenta, if they've gestated far enough along), their calcium stores ('one tooth for every child' used to be the saying, IIRC). They don't get back the extra nutrients they took in to maintain a pregnancy. Its not as though 'stolen goods' are returned to a woman after they're recovered in a pawn shop, no worse for wear.

    Theft also implies that the fetus/human had intentions of stealing or the mental capacity to understand what 'theft' is. To prosecute a human for theft would require that a person be of age to understand what 'theft' was and why it is wrong. This isn't the case at all.
    All right then, let me restate it thus: Should this injustice to the mother be righted by capital punishment? Is the mother's right to her own nutrients and organ function more important than the life of the human organism that will die without them?

    I do not think that it is.

  4. #34
    Member MJ_'s Avatar
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    All right then, let me restate it thus: Should this injustice to the mother be righted by capital punishment? Is the mother's right to her own nutrients and organ function more important than the life of the human organism that will die without them?

    I do not think that it is.
    You are of course, welcome to your opinion.

    I think I have the right to control what goes on in my own body. I think you have the same right to the security of your own person. Hypothetically, you could evict a homeless man from your remote cabin in a snowstorm to a certain death by exposure and not go to jail for murder. Because after all, you were merely protecting your own property. I wish my own uterus (which I am kind of attached to, understandably) to have the same protection as someone else's unheated hunting lodge.

    I am perfectly capable of weighing the moral and ethical implications, medical risks, financial considerations, and my emotional readiness with respect to continuing or terminating a pregnancy (or using hormonal birth control or a copper IUD). I trust other women to make their own decisions. I don't think I had any right to use my mother's nutrients and organ function without consent, as wonderful as it is to be on this earth. I don't think that anyone does.

    Perhaps you could look at your own navel and think of your own mother?

  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    At what point a fetus becomes a human being would depend on one's definition of a human being.

    Does there have to be a "point" at which this occurs?

    It is interesting how relentlessly human beings create dividing lines and categories. This is especially true in Western European thought. Whether it is dividing the lines of property into square mile fields, dividing pitch into equidistant half steps, rhythm into pulses, religion into denominations, politics into parties, the light spectrum into specific "colors", or personality into 16 types, the process is the same. We create a lower resolution of reality so that we can more easily deal with complexity. In reality these points of division are artificial. The limitation of this approach to processing information comes to the foreground when asking the most important questions like "when does human life begin?".
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #36
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    Perhaps you could look at your own navel and think of your own mother?
    My own mother put me up for adoption as a newborn. I know very little about my biological parents, except that they were married and both associated with a university in Maryland.

    Mom, if you're out there, thanks for carrying me to term.

    As for you, MJ, thank you for fighting for Mom's right to have had me diced instead. :rolli:

  7. #37
    Junior Member Homini Lupus's Avatar
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    The point in wich not giving help to those in need becomes homicide depends on the legal system. And even if mother's body is hers, the fetus is 50% product of someone else who in any case should have his part on the decision. Secondly, the role of a state is to defend their citizens from external and internal threats so prohibition of abortion wouldn't be inconsistent with its role. The decision of abortion has effect on at least two person's propriety (mother and father) and probably three or more (child/ren).

    BTW the fact that we were born from our mothers has no effect on the theoretical considerations.

  8. #38
    Member MJ_'s Avatar
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    Mom, if you're out there, thanks for carrying me to term.
    I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."

  9. #39
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."
    "What you're supposed to do" and "sacrifice" are not mutually exclusive. In fact, when it comes to parenthood, they overlap considerably.

    You've never been a parent, have you. I hesitate to recommend it to you.

  10. #40
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ_ View Post
    I note that you thank your mother for carrying you to term, rather than saying: "Mom, I don't need to thank you for making any sort sacrifice. You only did what you were supposed to do, and that requires no thanks at all."
    What a weird thought: what you were supposed to do
    What do you mean by that? Supposed to? Supposed to?

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