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  1. #31
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    The components of dialogue are: thesis + antithesis = synthesis. Arguments are worthwhile (feel like "winning") to me when they successfully yield some synthesis. Or as Jung put it, "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances; if there is any reaction, both are transformed." But where one or both people have some preconceived notion of what ‘synthesis’ the other person should walk away with- where one person expects to 'transform' the other without being affected themselves- that’s not especially satisfying to me (even when I’m the one who falls into the trap of being antidialogical- it invariably feels bad afterwards).

    eta: Although really- I guess I don't think both ends need to be 'transformed' for some idea/concept to be a 'winning argument', I just need to feel like some transformation has taken place. Because I can read something I'll consider a 'winning argument'- and it will still be a 'winning argument' to me, even though the writer hasn't been 'transformed' by the fact that I've read it. I guess I need for there to be an authentic transformation of POV (be it mine or someone else's) to take place to consider something a 'winning argument'- coercing someone else to agree or adopt a foreign POV through aggressive tactics is what I'd consider inauthentic transformation, and that's not 'winning' imo.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    The opposite's true for me. I feel that I can 'argue' with people I care about because there's a level of trust established that we don't mean anything personal by 'attacking' the ideas. I know less about where a stranger comes from; and so I'm more inclined to be observant if I want to hear out their ideas.

    edit: oh, different definitions of 'argue.'
    Yeah, the reality is that most people I DO care about do take that shit really personal and get all uppity and shit crumbles. Not everyone in my life is that way.. there are a handful of people I hang out with that won't take it personal (I mean, we'll argue, and then we're over it after that) but for the most part, yeah, even though I care a lot about my mom to give an example... if I were to argue with her, she'd take it so personal that I might as well have slapped and physically attacked her. That's how emotional she is about it. I have to keep my cool and make sure I talk to her in a cool, positive tone, no matter what I'm feeling and want to say as bluntly as I care.
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  3. #33
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    The desire to win an argument is a mortal frailty that I've shed long ago. People argue because they are insecure or they want to show-off.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #34
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The desire to win an argument is a mortal frailty that I've shed long ago. People argue because they are insecure or they want to show-off.
    While I don't care if I "win" the argument and agree the desire or need to do so is an insecurity, I see it as a sport called "enlightening the ignorant."
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  5. #35
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon
    I see it as a sport called "enlightening the ignorant."
    For me, it's more an act of mercy and generosity, a shining of the beacon to lead lost souls out of the forest of ignorance
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
    Likes johnnyyukon liked this post

  6. #36
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    I don't like to argue I like to discuss.


    Taking a concept to it's logical end is rarely logical or relevant to the subject at hand.
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  7. #37
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    While I don't care if I "win" the argument and agree the desire or need to do so is an insecurity, I see it as a sport called "enlightening the ignorant."
    Good one! Unfortunately, many of the ignorant resist enlightenment like the plague, which usually takes all the fun out of it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #38
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    never.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #39
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Good one! Unfortunately, many of the ignorant resist enlightenment like the plague, which usually takes all the fun out of it.
    Once resistance starts, that's when the mocking begins
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  10. #40
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Only foolish people waste time arguing to win.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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