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  1. #21
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Internet Arguments (surprisingly long gif, for a gif, watch from beginning)


    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.
    Likes Bush Did 9/11, Noll liked this post

  2. #22
    Senior Member Pinker85's Avatar
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    I like winning arguments, I think I do, anyway ... But it is as someone said "bittersweet" because I feel more lonely in a lot of ways when I win an argument. I think sometimes I'm engaged in a binary sorta win and lose argument a lot of the time in my head with my reactions to the world. Is this person sane? Is this person profound? Asking myself these kinds of questions. Because to think these thoughts is to believe oneself is right ... What I think must be the pinnacle of rightness and wrongness to make that judgement. But to think like this is distancing.
    "My comrades and my beloved, upon your way you shall meet men with hoofs; give them your wings. And men with horns; give them wreaths of laurel. And men with claws; give them petals for fingers. And men with forked tongues; give them honey words." --Kahlil Gibran, The Garden of The Prophet

  3. #23
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    The only time I call it a "win" is when the argument is sorted out fairly (that is, without any bias on either side) and all parties involved make up afterward.
    Only she who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible... and then some.

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  4. #24
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How would you define winning an argument, or do you even define it at all? Do you expect to win an argument? Do you hope, or seek to? When you decide to engage in an argument, what motivates you to do so, and what makes you decide to end one? What do you expect to have gained when it's over?
    I think less in terms of winning an argument than in succeeding with it. Success means really getting to the bottom of the issue being discussed, to the point where it is clear which point of view is the correct one, or more correct; or perhaps even how both are flawed. This is often done by pushing against the other person's case while building up my own to the point that, through our combined efforts, one or both "break".

    Few people are willing or able to see an argument through with me in this manner. One who did was a former colleague. We used to argue like this over how to conduct experiments. He was very meticulous and "by the book", while I could see how to simplify things and cut to the chase, without losing accuracy or information. Often his approach would "break" first, but even when both sides survived intact, we ended up with as complete an understanding of the pros and cons of each approach as we were likely to get, and could proceed along either path knowing what to expect and what to look out for.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #25
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think less in terms of winning an argument than in succeeding with it. Success means really getting to the bottom of the issue being discussed, to the point where it is clear which point of view is the correct one, or more correct; or perhaps even how both are flawed. This is often done by pushing against the other person's case while building up my own to the point that, through our combined efforts, one or both "break".

    Few people are willing or able to see an argument through with me in this manner. One who did was a former colleague. We used to argue like this over how to conduct experiments. He was very meticulous and "by the book", while I could see how to simplify things and cut to the chase, without losing accuracy or information. Often his approach would "break" first, but even when both sides survived intact, we ended up with as complete an understanding of the pros and cons of each approach as we were likely to get, and could proceed along either path knowing what to expect and what to look out for.
    I've been told that I break the other person and then I win, however it feels bittersweet instead of both learning from it. I want to get to the bottom of the issue, delving deeper which requires revealing more facts. These facts are then seen by a F type as a negative and they remember the negativity only. Making it so hard to get anywhere.

  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    I've been told that I break the other person and then I win, however it feels bittersweet instead of both learning from it. I want to get to the bottom of the issue, delving deeper which requires revealing more facts. These facts are then seen by a F type as a negative and they remember the negativity only. Making it so hard to get anywhere.
    I find it very frustrating when someone concedes defeat or just plain quits when much of the discussion remains unresolved. I will sometimes even point out that they haven't "lost" the argument yet, because we still have too many unaddressed statements.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #27
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    Meh. I can't be bothered arguing. To argue is to realise that the other person does not share my point of view and no amount of posturing on either side will change that. When you argue with someone you just entrench them deeper into their position by forcing them to defend it. Entrenchment isn't conducive to changing someone's mind. And then there is the whole question of why you would even care what another thinks or want to change their mind about something. That in itself assumes I would give a fuck, which I usually don't.


    I've come to realise there is no magical wonder in learning what another thinks, unless I am wanting to learn from them, in which case I would hardly be arguing, I would instead be listening.

  8. #28
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    Meh. I can't be bothered arguing. To argue is to realise that the other person does not share my point of view and no amount of posturing on either side will change that. When you argue with someone you just entrench them deeper into their position by forcing them to defend it. Entrenchment isn't conducive to changing someone's mind. And then there is the whole question of why you would even care what another thinks or want to change their mind about something. That in itself assumes I would give a fuck, which I usually don't.


    I've come to realise there is no magical wonder in learning what another thinks, unless I am wanting to learn from them, in which case I would hardly be arguing, I would instead be listening.
    Yes, to argue or to listen - listening is the greater.

  9. #29
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    As much as I love to debate JUST for the sake and fun of debating, I've found that FEW people can actually do it while remaining calm, logical and respectful.

    Pity
    Yeah, this. Why is it so hard to talk about ideas rather than the people involved?

    Every debate involving entrenched positions inevitably leads to bullshit name-calling and generalizations. Hardly anything is learned, and the perception that the other person is an idiot baby gets drilled into each other's skulls. This, of course, happens despite self-typing as T- or F-ego.

    I don't understand the appeal. Internet adrenaline?
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't like arguing with people I care about at all. It feels icky being mad at them. Strangers? totally different story.
    The opposite's true for me. I feel that I can 'argue' with people I care about because there's a level of trust established that we don't mean anything personal by 'attacking' the ideas. I know less about where a stranger comes from; and so I'm more inclined to be observant if I want to hear out their ideas.

    edit: oh, different definitions of 'argue.'
    J. Scott Crothers
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    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
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  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I think I see arguments as people not understanding each other, so winning an argument has to do with people understanding another perspective besides their own. I don't know that I want to change anyone's mind, but to get a response like, "I see what you are saying," or "it now makes sense why a person would say or do that". The more hostile and judgmental an argument gets, the further away it is from comprehending what the other person is saying. It can also be a matter of finding common ground. Some people in my family hold different political and religious positions from me, but I feel an "argument is won" if I can get us to agree on underlying principles and to understand why each person would see it from their perspective.

    In worst case scenarios I feel I've won an argument if the person quits being judgmental of me. If they stop assuming terrible things about me. I've had someone tell me I was "cruel" or "violent", even though that was clearly an exaggeration. I would have felt the argument was won if they had said that those words were not the best choice, but instead they insisted that some obscure part of the definition fit some part of me (that strong internal feeling= violence). Or if a family member is upset about my life and I manage to calm them down, then I have won the argument.

    When discussing ideas I can't think in terms of argument because who owns an idea anyway? Some of us are lucky to encounter the right ideas, some of us are lucky to be smart, but ideas are like the ocean. We can all enter it and play, but who owns the water? It gets extremely distracting for me to mix ego competition into ideas because it has nothing to do with validity, learning, understanding, or anything.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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