Is the alpha male more alpha than someone who laughs and looks down on him?

[Cellmold]

Yes.

I should clarify: an alpha is not defined by how many sexual partners he/she has. They are defined by their ability to choose them, where and when they want to. Another proviso is fertility; if you can't pass on your genes you cannot be an alpha. Perpetrating your legacy, y'know

What makes a woman an alpha is a bit different than what makes a man one, because the traits most highly valued in females are not the same.

Do you think the status of alpha is important?

 

[johnnyyukon]

Do you think the status of alpha is important?

I wanna play!

Depends on what your goals are, and I still don't feel like the definition has been nailed down, nor do I think it will be. Closer though. Interesting topic.

I mean, part of being "Alpha" IS status. So, in that regard, absofreakin' lutley.

If we're using the most positive definition (not 'roided out frat boy) say...this definition:

An Alpha is the leader of the pack.

There is no Alpha without the pack.

And there is no pack without the pack mentality.

So it is social psychology that determines an Alpha.

Which is a pretty damn good one, IMO, if you are a beta wolf getting just the scraps, you're going to continue to be weak and beta. That's your status, malnourished, mostly shunned, but we let you hang out cuz we could use the numbers in our pack, and you're too weak and a weenie to go off on your own.

Like mole said, there IS no Alpha if you're by yourself or have zero friends to call up for whatever. But you're also not Beta. You're a lone wolf.


"Some wolves will simply remain lone wolves; as such, these lone wolves may be stronger, more aggressive and far more dangerous than the average wolf that is a member of a pack. However, lone wolves have difficulty hunting, as wolves’ favorite prey, large ungulates, are nearly impossible for a single wolf to bring down alone. Instead, lone wolves will generally hunt smaller animals and scavenge carrion.[1]"

""Dispersers" are wolves who leave a pack; these lone wolves will sometimes find a mate and start a new pack."

So those two facts were pretty interesting to me.

Humans operate very similar. Hell, you'll get people on this forum (myself included) that feel like they have poor status and just need to leave and start over.

And sometimes, that IS the best solution.

 

[Bullet]

Stupid question.

That's a stupid response. Answer the question.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Alpha only exists in a social context. The pack following the alpha makes the alpha an alpha.

The only thing that would diminish alphaness is if the person making fun of them is siphoning off the alphas followers.

Alphaness doesn't revolve around being a dick, or working out or being the best looking guy in the room. It's about the affect one has on other people.

There are nice alphas and dick alphas, just like there are nice and shitty versions of every kind of person.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

So lets say there is some big shot alpha male acting all big and shit, then there is someone who doesent care about the alpha male trying to be all alpha, but just finds it amusing, laughs at him(understanding it, but not caring if it hits the alpha males ego and makes him angry) and doesent take the alpha male seriously in any way(which will most likely piss off the alpha male and making him try to act bigger, which is just met with more amusement and looking down on the alpha male).

So which is the real alpha male?

I am. Because I was always that kid who laughed at and made fun of the alpha males in my school.

 

[Kullervo]

Kind of.

If I hadn't been around long enough, I'd think gay men were too effeminate and "push overs."

But I've since met plenty of badass Alpha gay dudes. Couple blackbelts, and one Marine, stand out right now.

My point is that one of our fundamental purposes in existing is to procreate. How physically strong and/or intelligent a man may be, if he is incapable of perpetrating a legacy in some way I fail to see how he can be considered alpha.

We are talking about peas and apples here.

2 Alphas,

Primal Alpha + Civilized, High Social Status Alpha = Uber Alpha.


Pa-lenty of real life and fictionals to choose from. But for now, let's say Batman and James Bond.

More or less, Batman uses violence only when necessary and rarely kills (if we're talking about the traditional character). All the goons he fights are examples of pure primal alpha, which in the grand scheme, is pretty pathetic. Bruce Wayne is super rich, suave, highly intelligent and charming (come to think of it, his superpower really is just being super rich, private schooling and whatnot).

James Bond, again, kills when he has to, but he has to a lot. And he'll get the job done anyway he can. Shoot his way out, talk his way out, MAcGyver some shit. But he knows how to turn his inner ape off.

Basically in touch with both your inner animal and your evolving, higher self.

These are pretty extreme examples that don't correspond to even 0.1% of men in the real world. From my observations, outside movies men tend to be either very physically or mentally gifted, but not both. In other words, it's a bit of a trade off and most of us are somewhere nearer the average phenotype. Almost all my role models would've been nailed in a pub brawl, but we still know who they are long after their death. So in the end, who is more alpha?

In reality, I think the division of men into alpha and beta is a lot more rooted in sexual selection than what you've suggested, and what qualities make you alpha or beta just depend on what women want (and vice versa for female alphas and betas). Some obvious physical needs aside, this can vary quite a bit between ages and cultures.

I hope my position is making more sense now.

 

[Kullervo]

That's a stupid response. Answer the question.

The people who are stupid are those who are ask questions they already know the answer to.

Re-read my previous comments. I am not wasting time spoonfeeding adults.

 

[Cellmold]

Query: Are there any gay alphas?

Gay alpha spotted at 6 seconds in:

 

[Kullervo]

Do you think the status of alpha is important?

It depends on whether status matters to the other sex.

From what I've noticed, at my age money and even social status aren't nearly as important as social skills. I am sure this will change as we grow older.

 

[johnnyyukon]

These are pretty extreme examples that don't correspond to even 0.1% of men in the real world. From my observations, outside movies men tend to be either very physically or mentally gifted, but not both. In other words, it's a bit of a trade off and most of us are somewhere nearer the average phenotype. Almost all my role models would've been nailed in a pub brawl, but we still know who they are long after their death. So in the end, who is more alpha?

In reality, I think the division of men into alpha and beta is a lot more rooted in sexual selection than what you've suggested, and what qualities make you alpha or beta just depend on what women want (and vice versa for female alphas and betas). Some obvious physical needs aside, this can vary quite a bit between ages and cultures.

I hope my position is making more sense now.

If an argument can't hold up to extreme examples, then it's weak, that's why I used comic book characters BUT here's two real, crazy ass Ukrainian brothers. Both hold boxing heavyweight titles, both have PHDs. I'll spoiler the factoids, but no matter what, pretty interesting:


Wladimir Klitschko Hayden Panettiere is pregnant with his kid

is a Ukrainian heavyweight professional boxer

Overall, he is the second longest reigning Heavyweight Champion of all time

Klitschko is tied with Muhammad Ali for second on the all-time list for most heavyweight title fights with 25, behind only Joe Louis with 27.

His father, Vladimir Rodionovich Klitschko (1947–2011), was a Soviet Air Force major general and a military attaché of Ukraine in Germany; he was also one of the commanders in charge of cleaning up the effects of the Chernobyl disaster in 1986 and was afterward diagnosed with cancer.

Klitschko speaks four languages: Ukrainian, Russian, German and English.

Both Vitali and his brother are avid chess players.

Current Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, lineal, WBA (Super), IBF, WBO, IBO and The Ring world champion

number two pound-for-pound fighter in the world.

Longest reigning IBF, WBO & IBO heavyweight champion in history with the most title defenses for those organizations.

On 15 April 2014, he reached a career peak of number three on the pound-for-pound list of Ring Magazine.

Was accepted in the postgraduate study program of Kiev University.

On 18 January 2001, in a conference hall of Kiev University of physical science and sports, Klitschko presented his doctoral dissertation and was awarded a PhD in Sports Science.

Vitali Klitschko-Dr. Ironfist

former professional boxer.

Current Mayor of Kiev (the capital and largest city in Ukraine)
head of the Kiev City State Administration and He is the leader of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform and a former Member of the Ukrainian Parliament.

He is the former WBC, WBO and The Ring magazine heavyweight champion and has been conferred as Champion Emeritus by the WBC.

Klitschko became actively involved in Ukrainian politics in 2005 and combined this with his professional boxing career until his departure from boxing mid-December 2013. Klitschko was the first professional boxing world champion to hold a PhD degree.

Klitschko was known for his powerful punches and durable chin. With an 87.23% knockout percentage rate, he holds the second best knockout-to-fight ratio of any champion in heavyweight boxing history, after Rocky Marciano's 87.76% and is the 8th longest reigning heavyweight champion of all time.

He has never been knocked down in any professional boxing bout. His two losses have come via a shoulder injury during a fight and a deep cut below his eye, which were recorded as RTD and TKO losses.

In both fights, however, he was leading on the scorecards. His power and his possession of a doctorate have led to his nickname, Dr. Ironfist.

Both Vitali and his brother are avid chess players.

Vitali is a friend of former world chess champion Vladimir Kramnik; and the two have played, with Kramnik always winning. Vitali has commented that
"chess is similar to boxing. You need to develop a strategy, and you need to think two or three steps ahead about what your opponent is doing. You have to be smart. But what's the difference between chess and boxing? In chess, nobody is an expert, but everybody plays. In boxing everybody is an expert, but nobody fights."

Vitali and his brother also have been involved in charitable activities dedicated to support the needs of schools, churches and children. In 2002, the Klitschko brothers announced that they had agreed to work for UNESCO.

Being "Alpha" or "Beta" has a lot of factors. If you're white AND American but not good with the ladies, go to Asia. BOOM insta-Alpha. Trust me. If we're going by your definition.

I'm not sure who brought it up, but I feel like someone thinks laughing at some large guy behind his back at a club is considered "Alpha." Nope.

Anyway, I think I've said my peace. Interesting topic though.

 

[Bullet]

The people who are stupid are those who are ask questions they already know the answer to.

Re-read my previous comments. I am not wasting time spoonfeeding adults.

I don't recall you mentioning the subject of homosexuality as it pertains to this definitive science of alpha-male'ness which you apparently subscribe to. Despite your preposterous claim that this concept is reliant upon fertility (and presumably sexual orientation), the term "alpha" only has relevance within a designated hierarchy.

I'm curious what your view is of Alexander the Great. He created one of the largest empires the world has ever seen and never lost a battle in 15 years, though he was bisexual and had only one child who died at the age of 12. Adolf Hitler had no offspring. If biblical prophecies about the worldwide leader referred to as the Antichrist are presumed to be true, he will have no regard for the desire of women, which doesn't necessarily indicate homosexuality, but possible asexuality, as he is described as being consumed with self-adoration. I find it mildly amusing that you probably view yourself as more "alpha" than any of these world leaders.

What makes a woman an alpha is a bit different than what makes a man one, because the traits most highly valued in females are not the same.

Do tell. I'm curious what these traits are. Do you suppose the leader of a matriarchy is less alpha than any of her subordinates?

 

[Kullervo]

I don't recall you mentioning the subject of homosexuality as it pertains to this definitive science of alpha-male'ness which you apparently subscribe to. Despite your preposterous claim that this concept is reliant upon fertility (and presumably sexual orientation), the term "alpha" only has relevance within a designated hierarchy.

I merely dispute the notion that alpha-ness is unrelated to sexual desirability.

Have a look at how alphas and betas are defined in a typical group of men; say at a university party or in a bar. How are they chosen and who by?

I'm curious what your view is of Alexander the Great. He created one of the largest empires the world has ever seen and never lost a battle in 15 years, though he was bisexual and had only one child who died at the age of 12. Adolf Hitler had no offspring. If biblical prophecies about the worldwide government leader referred to as the Antichrist are assumed to be true, he will have no regard for the desire of women, which doesn't necessarily indicate homosexuality, but possible asexuality, as he is described as being consumed with self-adoration. I find it mildly amusing that you probably view yourself as more "alpha" than any of these world leaders.

These are extreme examples. The exception does not make the rule; poor argument.

 

[Bullet]

I merely dispute the notion that alpha-ness is unrelated to sexual desirability.

Have a look at how alphas and betas are defined in a typical group of men; say at a university party or in a bar. How are they chosen and who by?

Sexual desirability is subjective. And plenty of men who you would consider "beta" are not sexually deprived. Alpha's and beta's are only defined in a group of men by nerds who buy into this shit. A university party is not a chain of command, unless fraternities have an actual established hierarchy. Women choose whoever they want to have sex with; sometimes they choose other women.

These are extreme examples. The exception does not make the rule; poor argument.

There is no universal "rule." It's all in your head. If that gives you a sense of self-esteem or something to strive for, then more power to you.

 

[Kullervo]

Sexual desirability is subjective. And plenty of men who you would consider "beta" are not sexually deprived. Alpha's and beta's are only defined in a group of men by nerds who buy into this shit. A university party is not a chain of command, unless fraternities have an actual established hierarchy. Women choose whoever they want to have sex with; sometimes they choose other women.

From what I've seen, "alpha males" are mainly referred to in dating discussions, so I am basing my definitions and discussion on that... Because there is no explicit ranking of the world's men in dating; we don't exist in some concrete chain of command. While your power and influence is a factor, in the vast majority of cases these things are not significant enough of their own to distinguish you from other men. Thus alpha-ness is fluid and (usually) implied, and quite linked to sexuality.

If I wanted, I could link you to studies that show facial symmetry and wearing red increase a person's attractiveness. Of course sexual desirability is partly subjective, but it isn't entirely.

There is no universal "rule." It's all in your head. If that gives you a sense of self-esteem and something to strive for, then more power to you.

Thank you for the unsolicited psychoanalysis.

 

[Bullet]

From what I've seen, "alpha males" are mainly referred to in dating discussions, so I am basing my definitions and discussion on that... Because there is no explicit ranking of the world's men in dating; we don't exist in some concrete chain of command. While your power and influence is a factor, in the vast majority of cases these things are not significant enough of their own to distinguish you from other men. Thus alpha-ness is fluid and (usually) implied, and quite linked to sexuality.

If I wanted, I could link you to studies that show facial symmetry and wearing red increase a person's attractiveness. Of course sexual desirability is partly subjective, but it isn't entirely.

Well...for a merely fluid concept that some people refer to in the dating realm which doesn't really indicate anything concrete or definitive, you were advocating for some pretty strict parameters regarding fertility, sexual orientation, etc...

Thank you for the unsolicited psychoanalysis.

Don't worry about it. The first session is free.

 

[Doomkid]

So lets say there is some big shot alpha male acting all big and shit, then there is someone who doesent care about the alpha male trying to be all alpha, but just finds it amusing, laughs at him(understanding it, but not caring if it hits the alpha males ego and makes him angry) and doesent take the alpha male seriously in any way(which will most likely piss off the alpha male and making him try to act bigger, which is just met with more amusement and looking down on the alpha male).

So which is the real alpha male?

real alpha males don't have their egos easily hurt nor do they try to hurt someone else's ego for no reason, none of these are alpha, both are wannabes maybe

 

[BlackDog]

So lets say there is some big shot alpha male acting all big and shit, then there is someone who doesent care about the alpha male trying to be all alpha, but just finds it amusing, laughs at him(understanding it, but not caring if it hits the alpha males ego and makes him angry) and doesent take the alpha male seriously in any way(which will most likely piss off the alpha male and making him try to act bigger, which is just met with more amusement and looking down on the alpha male).

So which is the real alpha male?

Neither. You're describing a wannabe alpha. Real alphas get an automatic acknowledgement of superiority; these are your 'leaders of men'.

 

[Thalassa]

The one laughing is an omega, I think. They have no place in the pack so stand alone. The person being laughed at is probably a beta. Alphas are a sort that make themselves part of society but so naturally presume their leadership that they don't have these striving behaviors of the beta.

 

[BlackDog]

The one laughing is an omega, I think. They have no place in the pack so stand alone. The person being laughed at is probably a beta. Alphas are a sort that make themselves part of society but so naturally presume their leadership that they don't have these striving behaviors of the beta.

Omegas are actually the Untouchables. At least in animal ethology. They are the lowest of the low.

You are using the reclassification that humans use.

I agree that the 'loner' is occasionally a loner by choice. But more often this is a pose intended to cover a weakness, social dysfunction. Participation in the group brings tremendous benefits; it is usually a bad idea to opt out no matter how 'strong' you are.

 

[Thalassa]

Omegas are actually the Untouchables. At least in animal ethology. They are the lowest of the low.

You are using the reclassification that humans use.

I agree that the 'loner' is occasionally a loner by choice. But more often this is a pose intended to cover a weakness, social dysfunction. Participation in the group brings tremendous benefits; it is usually a bad idea to opt out no matter how 'strong' you are.

Some people argue it's all bad to even compare wolves to humans, especially since male alpha wolves actually show great responsibility to the pack, to the females and pups.

I was just trying to think of the term for the person who just is a loner, or lone wolf. My bad.