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  1. #51
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Bullet has made some excellent points in this thread. The popular adoption of the "alpha" concept is misguided, as for one thing even its original sources have been disproved. Click here for a useful roundup of the criticism now leveled at the wolf social studies the alpha idea rose from. Good quote:


  2. #52
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What about mu males?
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Or Aleph-1? Beyond the Greek system
    Hipsters...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Bullet has made some excellent points in this thread. The popular adoption of the "alpha" concept is misguided, as for one thing even its original sources have been disproved. Click here for a useful roundup of the criticism now leveled at the wolf social studies the alpha idea rose from. Good quote:

    Interesting. What about dolphins and orcas? IIRC they have VERY strict social hierarchies.
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  3. #53
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting. What about dolphins and orcas? IIRC they have VERY strict social hierarchies.
    They might well. But how does this prove that humans naturally have alphas, or naturally follow an alpha/beta/whatever system? We have adopted a position concerning human social orders based on invalidated studies because it was intuitive. Maybe we can't trust our intuitions here.

    This thread is based on the assumption that the human social order is a term in which "alpha" and "beta" are useful or apt. Well, why? When was it proven things were that simple that they could be explained this way? *edit* Because we want it to be this way? Because it boosts our egos? Because its sexy? Because its simple and we like things simple? I don't get it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Amalie Muller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    A good way to think about it would be this.

    Were all the laws of civil society to evaporate, they would probably be running the show among their peers.
    Who do you think are running the show right now?

  5. #55
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    They might well. But how does this prove that humans naturally have alphas, or naturally follow an alpha/beta/whatever system?
    It doesn't. I was just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    We have adopted a position concerning human social orders based on invalidated studies because it was intuitive. Maybe we can't trust our intuitions here.

    This thread is based on the assumption that the human social order is a term in which "alpha" and "beta" are useful or apt. Well, why? When was it proven things were that simple that they could be explained this way? *edit* Because we want it to be this way? Because it boosts our egos? Because its sexy? Because its simple and we like things simple? I don't get it.
    It's probably just an extension of this.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Amalie Muller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    An alpha male is defined by his success with women, nothing else.

    An 80 year old sugar daddy and a nerd who has somehow perfected the art of picking up women are both alpha males. All CEOs, high-ranking politicians etc are alpha males by default, provided they can get it up.

    You could be the most physically imposing man in the world, but if you are impotent, you are not an alpha male. Period.
    Then is an alpha female determined purely by how successful she is with men?

  7. #57
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hipsters...


    Interesting. What about dolphins and orcas? IIRC they have VERY strict social hierarchies.
    Where do you think the kid Jason (or whatever the hell his name was) from Free Willy fit into that?
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Amalie Muller's Avatar
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    With the exception of @Bullet's posts, this has been a pretty dumb thread.

  9. #59
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    If the answer to the OP was yes, then no alpha male would have any open critics ever. There would be some sort of cyclical thing where X is alpha but Y looks down on X and so Y is more alpha but X also looks down on Y so he's more alpha.

    Why am I even posting, though
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  10. #60
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @INTP
    fair enough (I agreed with that post as well), but I still disagree with the connotation of your post. you seem to be under the impression that alpha males are really just tribal, chest beating barbarians out for personal glory and masturbating their ego (even if they happen to be wearing suits). imo, it usually plays out in more sophisticated ways (particularly in high society) and isn't necessarily motivated by status, sex or egotism.
    The drive is the same for caveman and people today. Its just that because society has changed, the expression of this drive has changed as well.

    Today the battle for the alpha status might be some stock brokers trying to be the best. Or it might be alphas fighting each others in a cage in UFC match for the title of the ultimate fighter, which will be seen as the biggest alpha in those circles. Sometimes any real battle for the alpha status isnt needed if one of the group has enough alpha qualities that others of the group doesent have(like strong need or skills to aim for the position), for example being highly assertive, socially skilled and maybe as a cherry on the top physically attractive to ladies etc.
    But i think alpha male and alpha of the group are bit different, alpha of the group might be someone who isnt even a real alpha male and would get eaten alive by betas of another group.
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