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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Interesting responses. To those approving of the prayer discount - I have a question:
    Would you give the same defense for a business that offered anyone willing to publicly denounce god a discount?
    Yep.

    Private business, let it do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. There's no right to not have your god denounced, lol.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yep.

    Private business, let it do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. There's no right to not have your god denounced, lol.
    You have the right to not have to denounce your god to get a 15% discount at a restaurant.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Interesting responses. To those approving of the prayer discount - I have a question:
    Would you give the same defense for a business that offered anyone willing to publicly denounce god a discount?

    I mean, religious people can just the game the system right?
    This just got interesting!

    I would disapprove of that discount even more strongly than the prayer discount. I am not religious, so I could, but just because somebody has a belief in a supernatural being, and doesn't want to renounce it, doesn't mean they should pay extra. As to why it is more offensive, I'm not sure.


    That said, it IS a private bussiness, so I just wouldn't go there.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    You have the right to not have to denounce your god to get a 15% discount at a restaurant.
    I don't think so, though. It's not really anyone's right to be offered a certain price, beyond following (in the US) equal rights laws, which the restaurant does follow if they offer a set price otherwise. When I worked in a bakery we would give random discounts all the time, for people being nice or reminding us of family or not wanting to deal with them being grumpy, or whatever. I acknowledge that it's a weird rule, but it doesn't really step on anyone's toes. You could probably bow your head and mumble about underwear and still get the discount. Or you could just ask for it out of fairness. If they refused due to religion, that would be more legitimate ground for a lawsuit. As it is I feel like this is jumping the gun.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I don't think so, though. It's not really anyone's right to be offered a certain price, beyond following (in the US) equal rights laws, which the restaurant does follow if they offer a set price otherwise.
    It's everyone's right to be offered an equal price that does not discriminate on religious grounds one way or the other.

    You can offer a discount to someone because they're nice. You can't offer a discount to someone because they're black, or Christian, or a natural-born American citizen, because that's discriminatory.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it doesn't really step on anyone's toes. You could probably bow your head and mumble about underwear and still get the discount.

    I find this entire line of argument interesting - the base thought is that it doesn't discriminate against atheists, because atheists can lie.
    The holocaust didn't discriminate against Jews, because Jews could lie and produce fake lineage documentation saying they are of Aryan decedent (And many did).

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    It's everyone's right to be offered an equal price that does not discriminate on religious grounds one way or the other.

    You can offer a discount to someone because they're nice. You can't offer a discount to someone because they're black, or Christian, or a natural-born American citizen, because that's discriminatory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    I find this entire line of argument interesting - the base thought is that it doesn't discriminate against atheists, because atheists can lie.
    The holocaust didn't discriminate against Jews, because Jews could lie and produce fake lineage documentation saying they are of Aryan decedent (And many did).
    In response to both of these - like I said, I think it's jumping the gun, because it hasn't been determined that the restaurant won't give discounts to people of other beliefs. I live less than an hour from the place, and since I am used to life, culture, and customs in this area, I have a suspicion that it was not meant to be religious discrimination as much as it was meant to be an encourager of what the owners think is positive behavior and mindset. I think they were trying to reward people for being true to themselves and their beliefs in public.

    So, while on legal grounds I agree that it was approaching murky water, I do not think the intent was to be a discriminatory policy. I think this is more of a stupid mistake than an intentional violation, and that it is more useful to treat it as such. It's not really a line of argument, @Jarlaxle, it's just trying to see this for what it is. I think it's been blown up into something it was never meant to be, and I think the owners willingly (though clearly annoyed) pulling the discount is a demonstration of that.

    I also think it is kind of funny that people are making a big deal of this case when we still have some blatant references to Christianity in government-funded places and events and Christian lawmakers arguing that we should include (their) religion in government. It just seems out of proportion to me. I suspect people who live in less religious areas may be more taken aback by this, but they might not realize that down here we still deal with legislators who are trying to get Christian prayers in public schools. To me that is way more concerning than a diner giving a dollar or two off a meal, because I can just choose to not spend my money at that diner, whereas my tax dollars are going to those schools.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    In response to both of these - like I said, I think it's jumping the gun, because it hasn't been determined that the restaurant won't give discounts to people of other beliefs. I live less than an hour from the place, and since I am used to life, culture, and customs in this area, I have a suspicion that it was not meant to be religious discrimination as much as it was meant to be an encourager of what the owners think is positive behavior and mindset. I think they were trying to reward people for being true to themselves and their beliefs in public.

    So, while on legal grounds I agree that it was approaching murky water, I do not think the intent was to be a discriminatory policy. I think this is more of a stupid mistake than an intentional violation, and that it is more useful to treat it as such.
    To reward a manifestation (behavioral or otherwise) of the groups you belong too is to discriminate in favor of those groups, and to discriminate in favor of certain groups is to discriminate against other groups. The perceived difference between those is a false dichotomy rooted in framing - people don't view their own actions with ill-intent, they justify or ignore negative consequences with positive intents.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    To reward a manifestation (behavioral or otherwise) of the groups you belong too is to discriminate in favor of those groups, and to discriminate in favor of certain groups is to discriminate against other groups. The perceived difference between those is a false dichotomy rooted in framing - people don't view their own actions with ill-intent, they justify or ignore negative consequences with positive intents.
    So no discounts to anyone ever?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    So no discounts to anyone ever?
    I am not saying all discrimination is bad, I am just saying call it by it's name, and let the laws apply accordingly: Many restaurants discriminate in favor of people's who's birthday it is, there are hotels that discriminate in favor of newly weds, there are bars that discriminate in favor of whoever won the game of pool or darts, there are many businesses that give discounts for troops, the handicap, children or the elderly. There are also perfectly reasonable forms of discrimination, ranging from park rides that discriminate if your height places you in a dangerous position to Space X discriminating against people with heart conditions that are unlikely to survive a trip to orbit. But if we've determined that religion is off limit as a basis for discrimination, then it certainly applies in this case.

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