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  1. #31
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    It is almost no different than the places that give a discount for using manners. Just give me my damn coffee.
    This although anymore I wouldn't even be willing to make an argument with this kind of attitude. Yes they can run their business anyway they like but it seems like there is no real point to any of it, except causing issues (and that could very well have been the only point all along). Bring me coffee, I'll give you money. That should be the end of the discussion.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Where in any laws does it state that businesses are not allowed to discriminate against who they provide coupons to or not?
    You may have heard of it, it's called the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

    (b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

    ...

    (2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;


    If you're offering discounts you have to offer them equally to all of your customers. You can compel your customers to do something to get a coupon as long as that thing you're compelling them to do is not in and of itself discriminatory, e.g. you can make your customers fill out a survey before giving them a coupon, as long as the contents of the survey itself are not discriminatory. Compelling your customers to pray in order to get the discount is discrimination on the ground of religion and is very clearly illegal.

  3. #33
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    God is not for sale?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #34
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    God is not for sale?
    Of course God is for sale. Just check out your nearest bookstore. You'll find plenty of books He profits from.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain curmudgeon View Post
    Of course God is for sale. Just check out your nearest bookstore. You'll find plenty of books He profits from.
    I'm afraid you did not see the Irony in that statement.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #36
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    I'm afraid you did not see the Irony in that statement.
    I suppose it's not so much a matter of being 'for sale' as charging an optional recruitment fee.
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  7. #37
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    You may have heard of it, it's called the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

    (b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

    ...

    (2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;


    If you're offering discounts you have to offer them equally to all of your customers. You can compel your customers to do something to get a coupon as long as that thing you're compelling them to do is not in and of itself discriminatory, e.g. you can make your customers fill out a survey before giving them a coupon, as long as the contents of the survey itself are not discriminatory. Compelling your customers to pray in order to get the discount is discrimination on the ground of religion and is very clearly illegal.
    I kind of get that.. I didn't know coupons were involved in that because people discriminate all the time (by location, access to computers, female/male, etc.) in stupid ways with coupons.

    Even so, The part that bothers me is that there probably wasn't atheists walking up to the owner and saying, "Look, I don't believe in God. So, instead of praying, can I do [insert literally anything here, like meditate, or say something nice to someone, etc.]" because the aim of the restaurant was not to discriminate (I can only assume, as they said it wasn't) but to just spread some niceness around.

    I'm saying people don't actively try to solve problems anymore. They want to throw the book and go all out, or cower and run away defeated immediately. I doubt that these owners were some wretched Christian frowny-faced assholes that said, "Atheists just don't get a discount. Sorry bub." I mean, maybe they were, but no where in the articles are they saying that happened. People don't even try to just solve problems anymore. They just want to sue, and throw the books at everyone, and I despise that attitude of squashing things before they become a big deal and spend fuck tons of needless time, resources, and energy on something that really and truly didn't have to end up that way at all.

    Even if the owners WERE like that, they can just show them the literal passages you showed me and say, "Well, look, I tried to be nice about it, you don't like it tough. Convert it into a moment of silence at the table, or we'll be in our legal bounds to do something." I'll bet any business would end up crumpling as a result because the shit's plainly stated. Instead, there was a whole coalition effort trying to hammer down on, and look like bullies as a result, a small business owner.

    The difference between proposing a BETTER solution than the current problem (like converting it to a moment of silence, where prayer or silence could be endured equally) is that you KEEP the discount open to everyone, and actually help the people around you, instead of acting like an asshole and throwing books at walls and tearing everything down because you don't like it and it's technically illegal. I don't think any of that was even suggested.. I think this is a pretty classic lawsuit bullying based on the scant details I've seen.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I kind of get that.. I didn't know coupons were involved in that because people discriminate all the time (by location, access to computers, female/male, etc.) in stupid ways with coupons.
    Well, yeah, you can argue that (for example) getting a discount code for filling out a survey on a company's Facebook page is discriminatory against poorer people who don't have or don't have access to a computer. When it comes to that sort of stuff it's not so cut and dry, whereas in the case of religion it's very cut and dry.

    Even so, The part that bothers me is that there probably wasn't atheists walking up to the owner and saying, "Look, I don't believe in God. So, instead of praying, can I do [insert literally anything here, like meditate, or say something nice to someone, etc.]" because the aim of the restaurant was not to discriminate (I can only assume, as they said it wasn't) but to just spread some niceness around.

    I'm saying people don't actively try to solve problems anymore. They want to throw the book and go all out, or cower and run away defeated immediately. I doubt that these owners were some wretched Christian frowny-faced assholes that said, "Atheists just don't get a discount. Sorry bub." I mean, maybe they were, but no where in the articles are they saying that happened. People don't even try to just solve problems anymore. They just want to sue, and throw the books at everyone, and I despise that attitude of squashing things before they become a big deal and spend fuck tons of needless time, resources, and energy on something that really and truly didn't have to end up that way at all.

    Even if the owners WERE like that, they can just show them the literal passages you showed me and say, "Well, look, I tried to be nice about it, you don't like it tough. Convert it into a moment of silence at the table, or we'll be in our legal bounds to do something." I'll bet any business would end up crumpling as a result because the shit's plainly stated. Instead, there was a whole coalition effort trying to hammer down on, and look like bullies as a result, a small business owner.

    The difference between proposing a BETTER solution than the current problem (like converting it to a moment of silence, where prayer or silence could be endured equally) is that you KEEP the discount open to everyone, and actually help the people around you, instead of acting like an asshole and throwing books at walls and tearing everything down because you don't like it and it's technically illegal. I don't think any of that was even suggested..
    You're right, I doubt very much that the people who own the restaurant are "wretched Christian frowny-faced assholes" (I'll have to remember that line for later use ), and I doubt they meant to be discriminatory. They probably didn't know any better and probably have never known any different than what they've been doing. But what you call "spreading niceness" is not so nice: it's giving preferential treatment to (predominantly) Christians. Giving a discount for praying before a meal is the same as charging extra for not having prayed. That's a big no-no. And you can't just compel atheists or anybody else who doesn't or won't pray to do something instead like "have a moment of silence", because it's just prayer by another name.

    It sounds kind of scummy to have threatened legal action if the restaurant didn't change the policy but hey, it did get them to change the policy without having taken them to court. Nobody has actually lost any money over this (yet, assuming some Christian lobby group doesn't step in goad them into a lawsuit).

    I think this is a pretty classic lawsuit bullying based on the scant details I've seen.
    I wouldn't give the story much credence in the first place, given it's from foxnews.com.

  9. #39
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    But the pro-atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation, in a public letter, claimed that the restaurant was favoring belief over non-belief.
    I'd be like..."yeah, so?"

    Just because you don't agree with religion, a lot of people see the value it has in their own lives. I look at it like I would...different types of fruit. I don't particularly like cherries, for example...but I understand why someone might. At the same time, just because I love passion fruit...or my particular brand of religion...you shouldn't have a problem with it. It really doesn't effect you. And if you're bothered..you're welcome to, as many have, disregard it. But, I'd encourage you to try passion fruit...because I favor it. In just this way, a person can favor religion too (as opposed to non religion), and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Religion has helped me in ways for which I am thankful. I guess I'm just not the type to try to convince you of its utility. I figure its a tool in your arsenal, you might as well make some use of it. And it has really helped me when I've been down. I favor belief too...just because I'm sure I wouldn't be who I am today without it.

    I find most people actually believe in "something" beyond themselves. That relationship is private to you though, so I don't pry.

    As for this...it's probably not a good business practice to marginalize your clientele with something as fragmenting as religion. I'm not surprised. Still, if they insisted on keeping the policy...to the detriment of their business...because that's who they want to be, then I'd be in support of that. It's just life, y'all. Relax, you know? No one is getting out of this alive...we might as well enjoy the ride and stop spoiling it for other people.

    A discount for praying...is like, a discount for all. I mean, I'm not sure how the policy is enacted...but all you have to do is keep quiet for a minute and you save some money. Ethics aside, why is that a bad thing? Stop being so...overly sensitive...and enjoy your life. Guess what, life is going to offend you. We're not school children...the real world will make you cry, scream, hurt....and then you die. You have to keep a positive mind, otherwise you'll end up bitter. It's like...people look for reasons to get upset. Too many people afraid to be happy in this world. They thrive off of negative energy. I mean, can you make the case...legally, morally...that this is wrong? Sure.

    But why don't you just keep quiet and eat your food, damn..

  10. #40
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    Interesting responses. To those approving of the prayer discount - I have a question:
    Would you give the same defense for a business that offered anyone willing to publicly denounce god a discount?

    I mean, religious people can just the game the system right?

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