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  1. #21
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    my approach to life tends to be pragmatic especially my internal reactions to things
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #22
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is not so much incorrect as incomplete. It can logically be extended to say: "The function of thought is to describe represent, or mirror reality in such a way as to facilitate change of that reality." It then becomes a question of just how far one takes one's thoughts.
    What you say in your extended quote may describe the common concept of pragmatism ('He is a pragmatic guy...'), but not the philosophical tradition called pragmatism ('From a pragmatic point of view, the no miracle argument looks like a bad joke'). The original quote does.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Pragmatism = Thought has to be able to be applied to something. It has to concern itself with being useful. You should be able to do something with it. There's not much you can do with a description of reality.

  4. #24
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I am rather more keen on questions than answers. And I prefer ambiguity to clarity. So you see, you are the perfect foil for me.
    I like answers, too. But, my Mole, I may be a foil, but I am no enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What is your answer - to your question, and to mine?
    So here's one man's simplistic answers to them:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is not so much incorrect as incomplete. It can logically be extended to say: "The function of thought is to describe represent, or mirror reality in such a way as to facilitate change of that reality." It then becomes a question of just how far one takes one's thoughts.

    How can one constructively change a world one does not understand?
    Not very well. At all. Any changes made would be extremely misguided.

    Dog drops a dead bird at my feet and happily shakes his tail and pants. He has good intentions, but he doesn't quite understand that I don't need a dead bird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The quote, The important thing is not to understand the world but to change it is a direct quote from Karl Marx in his 11th thesis against Fuerbach.

    So is it pragmatic or simply revolutionary?
    The sentiment itself is revolutionary. In some sense, the statement itself is pragmatic; but it's better couched as a definition of pragmatism.. which, of course, produces the spark that's necessary in order to carry out pragmatism.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
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    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
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  5. #25
    Junior Member Smeckledorf's Avatar
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    I'm back, guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    My God, you are complaining about two cents when you got a hundred dollar reply.
    I wasn't complaining about your answer. In fact, I wasn't complaining at all. I was just pointing out how you really wanted to get your USA vs Australia example off. That's what I meant by your two cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It means that the distinction between what seems to be reality and what reality really is, the thing in itself, is finally given up. To Plato, the realm of ideas was was more real than the world of appearances he lived in. This myth of a truth behind the world, written in mathematical or religious terms, has pervaded western thought ever since. Pragmatists aim to be a little more realistic. Man is not the great representer of that true reality, but just a 'clever animal' that figures out 'better and better ways' to get by.

    This might enlighten you further.
    Thank you very much. It makes perfect sense.

    Another question: It seems that "pragmatism" takes many definitions. The definition a lot of Americans seem to be used to is the whole picture of a "get a job" yelling, shallow yet practical thinking kind of person who does well in life and acquires some business or something. In everyone's opinion, is this a valid second definition or just a misconception?

  6. #26
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
    Another question: It seems that "pragmatism" takes many definitions. The definition a lot of Americans seem to be used to is the whole picture of a "get a job" yelling, shallow yet practical thinking kind of person who does well in life and acquires some business or something. In everyone's opinion, is this a valid second definition or just a misconception?
    There are at least two uses of the word pragmatism. One is the popular culture usage that you mention above, and the second is a philosophic usage.

    For instance, the philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, is a pragmatic philosopher, who informs the pragmatic philosophy of Australia. In fact just around the corner we have named a street, Bentham Street, in honour of Jeremy Bentham.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
    Another question: It seems that "pragmatism" takes many definitions. The definition a lot of Americans seem to be used to is the whole picture of a "get a job" yelling, shallow yet practical thinking kind of person who does well in life and acquires some business or something. In everyone's opinion, is this a valid second definition or just a misconception?
    As you say, it has different definitions, meaning there are different its with the same name. Mole mentions the two main ones, both of which are again defined in different ways by different people, making for even more concepts of pragmatism. Nobody is right. It is just a word.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    From my dictionary (word web):

    (philosophy) the doctrine that practical consequences are the criteria of knowledge and meaning and value

    As such, a philosophy following these guidelines skips past a lot of pessimistic intellectual quagmires that other schools seem to find themselves tethered too or brooding in. It is a good rule of thumb to avoid hard skeptical side quests and other solipsistic type concerns which allow one to go about building a philosophy that centers on what can be made to do in the real world (or has a much greater tendency yield this, in my opinion).
    Escape powerful genjitsu by averting your gaze from the eyes.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Amalie Muller's Avatar
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    Pragmatists reject the idea of "truth", and redefine it to mean what's most "useful" to them.

    Example: Instead of making the effort to go to figure out the science and engineering problems to visit Mars, just change the name of the Earth to "Mars". Then you can say you've "Successfully been to Mars".

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