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  1. #31
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Then, by your definition, 'a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity' is also devoid of people.
    Watch the Kunstler video and it becomes plainly so. Of course Kunstler, and I, would also say that humans that are subjected to a place devoid of creativity and imagination will suffer a dehumanizing effect.

  2. #32
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Creativity is, at its core, all about conceiving ideas. The question is about 'using' those ideas--implementing them in some way. Since we're discussing use, morality can be thought of as a lens through which we evaluate some implementation of an idea.

    Creativity can be used for malicious purposes. Look at Scaphism. I would've never thought to execute someone by putting a canoe on top of them and feeding them milk and honey until they crap themselves so badly that maggots eat them alive.

    But I wouldn't do that anyway. Because it's malicious. Perhaps I wouldn't have thought of it because I don't personally hone my creativity toward torture devices.

    Lance Morrow, one of my favorites:
    "The story of evil in the world is so often a matter of hardware performing conscience: Can outruns Should."
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
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    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
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  3. #33
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Let's try this exercise:


    Can you imagine a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity where goodness also exists?
    Yes.

    I'd also say the worst kinds of evil are creative, in a way. You don't think the 9/11 hijackers were creative?

    Creativity is really a morally neutral thing. To deny this, you have to alter the definition of creativity so as to be unrecognizable.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    Not to mention all the times when someone might want to creatively rob a bank, or start a family unbeknownst to their current family, or create complex tableaus out of dead bodies (see: True Detective, Dexter), or anything else morally wrong that would take creativity to come up with.
    Yes. Pulling these things off all takes creativity.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  4. #34
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Creativity is really a morally neutral thing. To deny this, you have to alter the definition of creativity so as to be unrecognizable.
    Well, for what it's worth, the wiki definition sides with me.

    Creativity is a phenomenon whereby something new and valuable is created
    It's easy to scribble some lines on a piece of paper in a totally new way, but it's unlikely to be seen as valuable to anyone so nobody considers that creative. Evil people might come up with a new way to bring about terror and while that may be valuable to them personally it is not something of real value outside of it's utility to them and so it is not creative.

    Everybody keeps responding to my exercise in the affirmative, but I've yet to hear a description of how that would work out.

  5. #35
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Beorn you may need to clarify your definition of "imaginative" and where you're getting it from. For example, I would never have said that recognizing creativity in others was a sign of being creative.
    This is a good start:

    The Russell Kirk Center: The Moral Imagination by Russell Kirk

    By this “moral imagination,” Burke signifies that power of ethical perception which strides beyond the barriers of private experience and momentary events “especially,” as the dictionary has it, “the higher form of this power exercised in poetry and art.” The moral imagination aspires to the apprehending of right order in the soul and right order in the commonwealth. This moral imagination was the gift and the obsession of Plato and Vergil and Dante. Drawn from centuries of human consciousness, these concepts of the moral imagination—so powerfully if briefly put by Burke—are expressed afresh from age to age. So it is that the men of humane letters in our century whose work seems most likely to endure have not been neoterists, but rather bearers of an old standard, tossed by our modern winds of doctrine: the names of Eliot, Frost, Faulkner, Waugh, and Yeats may suffice to suggest the variety of this moral imagination in the twentieth century.
    Wendell Berry argues in his novel, Hanah Coulter, that imagination is required to grasp reality itself.

    Want of imagination makes things unreal enough to be destroyed. By imagination I mean knowledge and love. I mean compassion. People of power kill children, the old send the young to die, because they have no imagination. They have power. Can you have power and imagination at the same time? Can you kill people you don’t know and have compassion for them at the same time
    He expanded on this when he was recognized as the 2012 Jefferson Lecturer by the National Endowment for the Humanities.

    The term “imagination” in what I take to be its truest sense refers to a mental faculty that some people have used and thought about with the utmost seriousness. The sense of the verb “to imagine” contains the full richness of the verb “to see.” To imagine is to see most clearly, familiarly, and understandingly with the eyes, but also to see inwardly, with “the mind’s eye.” It is to see, not passively, but with a force of vision and even with visionary force. To take it seriously we must give up at once any notion that imagination is disconnected from reality or truth or knowledge. It has nothing to do either with clever imitation of appearances or with “dreaming up.” It does not depend upon one’s attitude or point of view, but grasps securely the qualities of things seen or envisioned.

    I will say, from my own belief and experience, that imagination thrives on contact, on tangible connection. For humans to have a responsible relationship to the world, they must imagine their places in it. To have a place, to live and belong in a place, to live from a place without destroying it, we must imagine it. By imagination we see it illuminated by its own unique character and by our love for it. By imagination we recognize with sympathy the fellow members, human and nonhuman, with whom we share our place. By that local experience we see the need to grant a sort of preemptive sympathy to all the fellow members, the neighbors, with whom we share the world. As imagination enables sympathy, sympathy enables affection. And it is in affection that we find the possibility of a neighborly, kind, and conserving economy.
    Wendell E. Berry Lecture | National Endowment for the Humanities

  6. #36
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Well, for what it's worth, the wiki definition sides with me.
    Nothing, it's worth nothing.

  7. #37
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Nothing, it's worth nothing.
    “You can’t go on “seeing through” things forever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. To “see through” all things is the same as not to see.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  8. #38
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Well, for what it's worth, the wiki definition sides with me.

    It's easy to scribble some lines on a piece of paper in a totally new way, but it's unlikely to be seen as valuable to anyone so nobody considers that creative. Evil people might come up with a new way to bring about terror and while that may be valuable to them personally it is not something of real value outside of it's utility to them and so it is not creative.
    I don't think the wiki article sides with you, because the caveat you just made was not made by the Wikipedia article. It only said "of value", and didn't specify who it would be valuable to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Everybody keeps responding to my exercise in the affirmative, but I've yet to hear a description of how that would work out.
    I don't think that can be provided, because of the reasons Nico listed. (See below.) And Vogons behave the way they behave for MANY reasons besides lack of creativity, so IMO too many factors at play in order for them to be convincing examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Then, by your definition, 'a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity' is also devoid of people. Of course, there is neither goodness nor badness without people or other sentient beings.

    But we both know that we will not be able to agree because we have very different ideas of morality.
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  9. #39
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't think the wiki article sides with you, because the caveat you just made was not made by the Wikipedia article. It only said "of value", and didn't specify who it would be valuable to.
    *sigh*
    I was being tongue-in-cheek. Why would I care about what wiki says when I'm pretty sure almost every great creative mind from the past couple of millinia up until the last hundred years or so would agree with me?

    In actuality the wiki provided a good generic description to show where two worldviews divide on the issue. It's your own worldview that causes you to presume that value exists only through individual determination and preference. You presume "of value" only exists with "to." Likewise it's my own worldview that sees "of value" as meaning that something is connected to the higher realm.

  10. #40
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    *sigh*
    I was being tongue-in-cheek. Why would I care about what wiki says when I'm pretty sure almost every great creative mind from the past couple of millinia up until the last hundred years or so would agree with me?

    In actuality the wiki provided a good generic description to show where two worldviews divide on the issue. It's your own worldview that causes you to presume that value exists only through individual determination and preference. You presume "of value" only exists with "to." Likewise it's my own worldview that sees "of value" as meaning that something is connected to the higher realm.
    Ok then. Agree to disagree.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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