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  1. #21
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Let's try this exercise:


    Can you imagine a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity where goodness also exists?

  2. #22
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Uh, what exactly are you trying to get across here?

  3. #23
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    When I think of a lack of creativity and imagination I think of Douglas Adams' Vogon race.

    "Here is what to do if you want to get a lift from a Vogon: forget it. They are one of the most unpleasant races in the Galaxy. Not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. They wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal without orders - signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters. The best way to get a drink out of a Vogon is to stick your finger down his throat, and the best way to irritate him is to feed his grandmother to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal. On no account should you allow a Vogon to read poetry at you."

    Adams may be right in that they aren't evil to the extent that evil is often an active perversion of good which to my mind cannot exist in this type of environment.

  4. #24
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Let's try this exercise:


    Can you imagine a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity where goodness also exists?
    Yes. I know good-hearted people without a creative bone in their body.

    Edit: Missed Nico's post, but Forrest Gump is a perfect example.
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  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sadly some of you may only need to look around you.
    If you have no idea what I'm talking about then maybe you should watch this Ted Talk:



    I might not be able to convince some of you that Piss Christ isn't art, but if Kunstler can't convince you of the evils of suburban sprawl and shitty modern urban design then you're beyond hope of recognizing the connection between humanity, imagination, and goodness.

  6. #26
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yes. I know good-hearted people without a creative bone in their body.

    Edit: Missed Nico's post, but Forrest Gump is a perfect example.
    Thank you for clarifying Nico's post.

    First, all humans are imaginative creations in and of themselves so pointing to any human as an example sort of misses the question and is why I gave an alien race as an example above. Secondly, while Forest may not be very creative in your mind he still respects and preserves that which is imaginative and good. He treats other humans well and he treats his posessions well including his mother's beautiful southern home. A moral imagination must be able to recognize good when it's present and make every effort to preserve it. Gump had that down.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thank you for clarifying Nico's post.

    First, all humans are imaginative creations in and of themselves so pointing to any human as an example sort of misses the question and is why I gave an alien race as an example above. Secondly, while Forest may not be very creative in your mind he still respects and preserves that which is imaginative and good. He treats other humans well and he treats his posessions well including his mother's beautiful southern home. A moral imagination must be able to recognize good when it's present and make every effort to preserve it. Gump had that down.
    Then, by your definition, 'a place totally devoid of imagination and creativity' is also devoid of people. Of course, there is neither goodness nor badness without people or other sentient beings.

    But we both know that we will not be able to agree because we have very different ideas of morality.

  8. #28
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If you have no idea what I'm talking about then maybe you should watch this Ted Talk:



    I might not be able to convince some of you that Piss Christ isn't art, but if Kunstler can't convince you of the evils of suburban sprawl and shitty modern urban design then you're beyond hope of recognizing the connection between humanity, imagination, and goodness.
    my hypothesis of anything involving multiple people rarely ends up "good" in the moral sense. often times it ends up harmful to society. goodness should be judged on an indivudual level if you try to find a society 100% good without faults or fuck ups or evil you will fall short every time. And the main problem isn't because people generally want a terrible society but some get clouded by greed, others revenge, some it's just simple bias, and others it's their the inability to see the world from a different perspective. I do believe that utopia doesn't exist someone is not gonna be happy, and it's not yours mine or anyone elses responsibility to make them happy. I don't mean be a dick to them, be nice and respectful. I'm all for improving society but it's arrogant to think it will ever be perfect

    but creativity can be used for evil or good. imagination is actually neutral it's how one applies that creativity that determines evil or good.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #29
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Beorn you may need to clarify your definition of "imaginative" and where you're getting it from. For example, I would never have said that recognizing creativity in others was a sign of being creative.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #30
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    Yes of course creativity can be evil or amoral. Though destruction is considered the opposite of creation, stagnation is more likely its true opposite. Like the opposite of love is not actually hate but indifference.

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