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  1. #81
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ...well, when "doing what the System / State / Doctrinal Scree says is the best" is not what you think is the best. This actually happens a lot, but the person acting in accordance to conscience will be labeled as a reprobate at the time by the dominant social system.

    ^^ I mean, hell, you could say Jesus himself fits in that category, ironically.
    I think it is extremely unlikely that Jesus acted according to his conscience against Judaism.

    It is far more likely that Jesus religiously followed the dominent social system of Judaism and became a Zealot.

  2. #82
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    These aren't fundamentalists. They are normal Sunni and normal Shia.
    The sad thing here is, yes, they are mainstream muslims.
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  3. #83
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    If you would actually observe human beings over the course of history and in their present incarnation you would see that human nature, not religion is the problem. People can be equally as disgusting via communism, anarcho-capitalism, or witch hunting twelve year olds who smile in front of concentration camps. People are spectacularly selfish, self righteous, ridiculous, delusional and fixated on their archetypes. It's all the same underneath.

    That's not to say I don't have strong ethics or cultural preferences myself, but yeah, people and their peopleness.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If you would actually observe human beings over the course of history and in their present incarnation you would see that human nature, not religion is the problem. People can be equally as disgusting via communism, anarcho-capitalism, or witch hunting twelve year olds who smile in front of concentration camps. People are spectacularly selfish, self righteous, ridiculous, delusional and fixated on their archetypes. It's all the same underneath.

    That's not to say I don't have strong ethics or cultural preferences myself, but yeah, people and their peopleness.
    Comma splice between "religion" and "is." And you say you have a degree in English?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I think it's been brought up, but in many religions, there is no "scoring points with God to earn a place in some utopian afterlife". It's often about reflecting God's perfect qualities the best a flawed human can because of a love for what is just & holy & loving, which God is said to embody. As for the Bible, it calls any "reward" an undeserved kindness from God, aka "grace", or something which cannot be earned, but is a gift. This is given out of God's love, not based on what we do or don't do, but on who we are. But this gift is bestowed on those worthy of it - those whose hearts are deemed complete towards God, because otherwise they are in effect scorning it & rejecting it (by not valuing God & what he embodies). The Bible simply shows that actions & words manifest from the inner person, so it's not like there is no connection between the two. But spirituality is about your inner person, the things no one sees or knows, sometimes not even you (ie. self-awareness), but that God knows because he reads "hearts". In other words, for a Christian, there is no fake being good or acting out of selfish motive to achieve a reward if you are actually following the teachings you claim to believe in. There is only refining the inner self to reflect God's glory, which will inevitably result in being more kind, loving, selfless, etc.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #86
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think it's been brought up, but in many religions, there is no "scoring points with God to earn a place in some utopian afterlife". It's often about reflecting God's perfect qualities the best a flawed human can because of a love for what is just & holy & loving, which God is said to embody. As for the Bible, it calls any "reward" an undeserved kindness from God, aka "grace", or something which cannot be earned, but is a gift. This is given out of God's love, not based on what we do or don't do, but on who we are. But this gift is bestowed on those worthy of it - those whose hearts are deemed complete towards God, because otherwise they are in effect scorning it & rejecting it (by not valuing God & what he embodies). The Bible simply shows that actions & words manifest from the inner person, so it's not like there is no connection between the two. But spirituality is about your inner person, the things no one sees or knows, sometimes not even you (ie. self-awareness), but that God knows because he reads "hearts". In other words, for a Christian, there is no fake being good or acting out of selfish motive to achieve a reward if you are actually following the teachings you claim to believe in. There is only refining the inner self to reflect God's glory, which will inevitably result in being more kind, loving, selfless, etc.
    This is the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith. By contrast the Roman Catholic doctrine is Justification by Faith and Works.

    The Protestant doctrine is special pleading and informs, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, just click on http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...Capitalism.pdf

    So this Protestant doctrine, presented so artlessly here, underlies bourgeois American Capitalism. Whoopee!

  7. #87
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This is the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith. By contrast the Roman Catholic doctrine is Justification by Faith and Works.

    The Protestant doctrine is special pleading and informs, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, just click on http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...Capitalism.pdf

    So this Protestant doctrine, presented so artlessly here, underlies bourgeois American Capitalism. Whoopee!
    "Bourgeois" is a communist term. Nice job outing yourself, commie!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Bourgeois" is a communist term. Nice job outing yourself, commie!
    The words bourgeois, proletariat, and liberal are part of the English language which is used by Communists, Nazis, Islamists, and liberals. And it turns out I practise liberal democracy.

    But calling me a commie reveals you to be a political son of senator Joe McCarthy.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The words bourgeois, proletariat, and liberal are part of the English language which is used by Communists, Nazis, Islamists, and liberals. And it turns out I practise liberal democracy.

    But calling me a commie reveals you to be a political son of senator Joe McCarthy.
    Oh now THAT is SO Bourgeois of you!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #90
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This is the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith. By contrast the Roman Catholic doctrine is Justification by Faith and Works.

    The Protestant doctrine is special pleading and informs, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, just click on http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...Capitalism.pdf

    So this Protestant doctrine, presented so artlessly here, underlies bourgeois American Capitalism. Whoopee!
    Quite right.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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