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Can religious people be genuinely decent?

Avocado

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Depends on the religion; but yes, that's one of the conflict points. People who believe that would just say that ultimately if your love is not driven by the version of God they believe in, then all your actions might look like love but are still selfish/empty. :shrug:


...To answer the OP question, my answer is pretty much what many others have said: Yes, there are many decent religious people out there. Take people on their own merits, not based on whether or not they are religious or adhere to a specific religious tradition.

Very good.
 

Seymour

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A truly alruistic person is someone who doesn't know they're altruistic.

Really? A conscious/costly sacrifice isn't as good as an unthinking/unconscious one? The widow's mite doesn't have value in part BECAUSE it is so costly? That's an interesting interpretation of a passage that is all about NOT making a public spectacle or statement of how awesome/"bawss" one is. Granted, a more enlightened perspective places one's personal needs into the larger context, but ignoring/being-unaware-of one's own needs is more a sign of dysfunction than a sign of altruism (IMHO/IMAO).

At any rate, I think Jesus (as presented in the New Testament) places an emphasis on being good from the inside out ("as a man is in his heart...") rather than on looking good and worrying about social status and positioning. I think that's laudable, regardless of one's religious affiliation. Of course, shaming, status, and social controls can have positive/pro-social effects (as loathe as I am to admit it), but that isn't what really speaks to FPs.
 

Azure Flame

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Really? A conscious/costly sacrifice isn't as good as an unthinking/unconscious one?

"isn't as good."

First of all there is no such way to quantify "good." Either it is good or its bad.

That's an interesting interpretation of a passage that is all about NOT making a public spectacle or statement of how awesome/"bawss" one is.

Wow you're so humble. Hey everyone, check out how humble this guy is, he's clearly far more humble and superior in humility than I am. Hey everyone do you see this guy? He's incredible!

Lets all come together and laud you for your well thought out plan to be seen as good by everyone around you. Yeah, that's completely altruistic. Once everyone knows how humble and altruistic you are, maybe then you'll believe it yourself!

Good luck Jesus, I mean Seymour.
 

Totenkindly

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"isn't as good."
First of all there is no such way to quantify "good." Either it is good or its bad.

So do you actually think it's appropriate to label an altruistic act that you are aware of as actually "bad?" Or is it still good?

After all, just because you are aware that you are doing something good doesn't mean that you're not choosing to do it for the right reasons. Any person with a bit of awareness is going to be self-aware enough to evaluate what they are choosing to do, correct?

Wow you're so humble. Hey everyone, check out how humble this guy is, he's clearly far more humble and superior in humility than I am. Hey everyone do you see this guy? He's incredible!

Lets all come together and laud you for your well thought out plan to be seen as good by everyone around you. Yeah, that's completely altruistic. Once everyone knows how humble and altruistic you are, maybe then you'll believe it yourself!

Good luck Jesus, I mean Seymour.

Uh, way to resort to an out-of-the-blue character slam rather than actually address the content. Let's actually dig into the topic a bit deeper here...

You seem to focus on binary alternatives when we're discussing something more complex. There are more options than being entirely oblivious to the essence of your choices ("good"?) vs being aware of the ramifications of your choices ("bad?"). In my experience, you CAN be aware of your reasoning behind making certain "good" decisions without actually doing them for selfish reasons, can't you?

Yes, it's good to do good deeds without sitting around calculating the potential benefit to oneself (this is what is means to "not let your right hand know what the left is doing"). And it's also good to make conscious sacrifices -- who wouldn't "count the cost" when they are constructing a tower -- the Bible suggests we SHOULD be counting the cost!), and of course making a conscious sacrifice for all the right reasons is certainly a good act.

I don't really see these ideas as being in contradiction Biblically. You can do things out simply flowing out of a good nature without even having to consider them; and you can also do good things through a very painful, very conscious process of scrutiny and choice to sacrifice. Jesus himself did both; there are many examples of latter, including the Garden of Gethsemene. (Jesus was very aware of what he was called to do and what he was expected to do, and he didn't want to do it; and then he chose to do it anyway. But of course all that deliberation occurred in private.)
 

Azure Flame

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So do you actually think it's appropriate to label an altruistic act that you are aware of as actually "bad?" Or is it still good?

After all, just because you are aware that you are doing something good doesn't mean that you're not choosing to do it for the right reasons. Any person with a bit of awareness is going to be self-aware enough to evaluate what they are choosing to do, correct?



Uh, way to resort to an out-of-the-blue character slam rather than actually address the content. Let's actually dig into the topic a bit deeper here...

You seem to focus on binary alternatives when we're discussing something more complex. There are more options than being entirely oblivious to the essence of your choices ("good"?) vs being aware of the ramifications of your choices ("bad?"). In my experience, you CAN be aware of your reasoning behind making certain "good" decisions without actually doing them for selfish reasons, can't you?

Yes, it's good to do good deeds without sitting around calculating the potential benefit to oneself (this is what is means to "not let your right hand know what the left is doing"). And it's also good to make conscious sacrifices -- who wouldn't "count the cost" when they are constructing a tower -- the Bible suggests we SHOULD be counting the cost!), and of course making a conscious sacrifice for all the right reasons is certainly a good act.

I don't really see these ideas as being in contradiction Biblically. You can do things out simply flowing out of a good nature without even having to consider them; and you can also do good things through a very painful, very conscious process of scrutiny and choice to sacrifice. Jesus himself did both; there are many examples of latter, including the Garden of Gethsemene. (Jesus was very aware of what he was called to do and what he was expected to do, and he didn't want to do it; and then he chose to do it anyway. But of course all that deliberation occurred in private.)

It wasn't out of the blue to him, trust me.

Yeah I don't actually know what I'm talking about with regard to altruism. I'm sure the bible answers it somewhere. Maybe I just spend too much time hanging around ENFJs and ENTJs to believe anything I'm saying anymore. After all, they believe every calculated decision I've made thus far has been to benefit only myself. yes and no. I don't know anymore. People are skeptical of my generosity and it makes me angry. Are they right? They could be, but I have no way of knowing anymore.
 

Mane

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What the hell did you just say.

If they believe in a god that rewards good actions, why would that NOT believe in a god that rewards good actions.

If I decide to pay you for every good thing you do for anyone - and I am all knowingly watching you from the NSA's spy equipment to know when you are - can you still act out of goodwill towards others? Would you ever get the opportunity?
 

Mole

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It's hard for me to believe the religious can be genuinely decent when I am watching a 16 kilometre parade of families escaping from torture and death in the new Islamic State of what was Iraq and Syria.
 

Noll

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Yes of course. But fundamentalists - Western or Eastern, aren't.
 

Totenkindly

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If I decide to pay you for every good thing you do for anyone - and I am all knowingly watching you from the NSA's spy equipment to know when you are - can you still act out of goodwill towards others? Would you ever get the opportunity?

My answer to this:

1. Yes, you CAN still act out of goodwill, internally. It's all about your motivations.

2a. No external viewer will be able to tell the difference between compliance and good will.
2b. In addition, since you're being pressured to comply, you yourself might not be sure of your own motivations until you finally act in a vacuum, possessing a reasonable amount of freedom.

Of course, if you respond against pressure to do something you consider wrong and choose to do something you consider right (and are punished for it), in that scenario it's clear that you wanted to do the right thing. It's the case of doing the "right thing" through compliance to law that is ambiguous.

Also note that we never actually live in a pure vacuum of external pressure. We're shaped from the day we were born. So this is more about "practical range of choice" than "literal/perfect free will."
 
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If I decide to pay you for every good thing you do for anyone - and I am all knowingly watching you from the NSA's spy equipment to know when you are - can you still act out of goodwill towards others? Would you ever get the opportunity?

Ok I think I know what you're saying.

The answer is, FUCK YEAH.

So I've read that people begin to enjoy and invest more in their jobs once they reach a certain threshold of comfortable living income. That perhaps they liked what they did, but when they were not getting paid much or were broke, they had a lot of doubt, a little motivation.

I know I've experienced this.

Also, anyone that's ever volunteered for a good cause, and has felt like they've really helped people knows it's a good feeling.

And can even turn into a "selfish" addiction, but I'd say it's one that's win win.
 

PeaceBaby

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If I decide to pay you for every good thing you do for anyone - and I am all knowingly watching you from the NSA's spy equipment to know when you are - can you still act out of goodwill towards others? Would you ever get the opportunity?

I feel like we're cutting smaller and smaller slices of the same pie.
 

EJCC

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You know, this shouldn't be a difficult riddle to solve: Are there any situations in which a religious person Believing in a god which rewards good actions for the benefits of others in the afterlife can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their own afterlife in the process?
Counter-question: Are there any situations in which a secular* person, believing in a system in which good actions lead to better treatment from others and better lives overall, can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their future life success in the process?

Everyone has some kind of code that they live by. Everyone operates out of self-interest. We're taught early on that being nice to people means they'll be nice back -- and that respecting others means they'll respect you. We're taught that you can live a more fulfilling life if you are a better person. How is that not self-interest?


*defined in this case as a person who doesn't think about religion and/or the afterlife all that much in their everyday life decisions
 

Qlip

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Counter-question: Are there any situations in which a secular* person, believing in a system in which good actions lead to better treatment from others and better lives overall, can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their future life success in the process?

Everyone has some kind of code that they live by. Everyone operates out of self-interest. We're taught early on that being nice to people means they'll be nice back -- and that respecting others means they'll respect you. We're taught that you can live a more fulfilling life if you are a better person. How is that not self-interest?


*defined in this case as a person who doesn't think about religion and/or the afterlife all that much in their everyday life decisions

I went through a heavy cynical phase, where I surprisingly learned that no matter how much I wanted to believe everyone was essentially self-interested, people do have a natural altruistic streak. I don't believe this is a learned behavior. We are herd animals, we instinctively help others... as long as we think they are in our herd. In a way this is self-interest, but it's rooted beyond our training, beyond our conscious, or even the shallow end of our sub-conscious thought processes.
 

EJCC

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I went through a heavy cynical phase, where I surprisingly learned that no matter how much I wanted to believe everyone was essentially self-interested, people do have a natural altruistic streak. I don't believe this is a learned behavior. We are herd animals, we instinctively help others... as long as we think they are in our herd. In a way this is self-interest, but it's rooted beyond our training, beyond our conscious, or even the shallow end of our sub-conscious thought processes.
I agree with this. It's an elegant way of putting it -- including self-interest, community-orientation, "othering" people who aren't a part of the community or would presumably do harm to the community, and the selectiveness of our altruism.
 

Mane

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I went through a heavy cynical phase, where I surprisingly learned that no matter how much I wanted to believe everyone was essentially self-interested, people do have a natural altruistic streak. I don't believe this is a learned behavior. We are herd animals, we instinctively help others... as long as we think they are in our herd. In a way this is self-interest, but it's rooted beyond our training, beyond our conscious, or even the shallow end of our sub-conscious thought processes.

Yes - In fact mathematical models (often used in evolutionary psychology) have repeatedly shown that "tribes" simulating ultruism fared better then tribes that did not - the later where statistically inclined to perish.





I feel like we're cutting smaller and smaller slices of the same pie.


My intention was a thought exercise in better understanding self-awareness, I failed to predict the ease at which my first example came across as religious bashing (In hindsight quite foolishly on my part :doh:). The payment example helps focus the question closer to my original intent (Despite not really having a substantial real life equivalent).


My answer to this:


1. Yes, you CAN still act out of goodwill, internally. It's all about your motivations.


2a. No external viewer will be able to tell the difference between compliance and good will.
2b. In addition, since you're being pressured to comply, you yourself might not be sure of your own motivations until you finally act in a vacuum, possessing a reasonable amount of freedom.

So we're back in step 1: It is possible but inherently unknowable.

The good sinner loophole: I love that! I did assume that the person's morality and the morality of the dogma they believe in correspond perfectly, when that isn't the case, goodwill becomes knowable. When doing the best for another is not what you believe to be the right thing to do.
 

Totenkindly

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The good sinner loophole: I love that! I did assume that the person's morality and the morality of the dogma they believe in correspond perfectly, when that isn't the case, goodwill becomes knowable. When doing the best for another is not what you believe to be the right thing to do.

...well, when "doing what the System / State / Doctrinal Scree says is the best" is not what you think is the best. This actually happens a lot, but the person acting in accordance to conscience will be labeled as a reprobate at the time by the dominant social system.

^^ I mean, hell, you could say Jesus himself fits in that category, ironically.
 

Beorn

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[MENTION=22098]Jarlaxle[/MENTION] is your conception of goodwill based only on intention?

Edit: Actually, to be even more specific about your position can you tell me if you are presupposing a deontological ethic?
 

Coriolis

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Everyone has some kind of code that they live by. Everyone operates out of self-interest. We're taught early on that being nice to people means they'll be nice back -- and that respecting others means they'll respect you. We're taught that you can live a more fulfilling life if you are a better person. How is that not self-interest?
In some sense, everyone always acts in their own self interest. Even when we are trying to think of others vs. ourselves, we do that because it is in keeping with our values. We thus act to support the values we promote. Even people like Mother Teresa did that.
 

Seymour

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The thought of an observer paying you for being altruistic reminds me of an article about how the illusion of being observed makes people act more morally. It seems like a religious belief often includes the idea of an unseen observer (deity, the soul of an ancestor, etc), which might (in a small way) lead to more moral behavior.

Of course, the other way religion is pro-social is by making people more "groupish" and hence more likely to help in-group members.

I suppose one can always argue the "feeling good about oneself" or "feeling moral" is kind of a reward for altruistic behavior... which puts even altruistic behavior in the realm of self-interest. Still, that altruism can (and often does) feel good indicates a human capacity for altruism.

My other thought (triggered by Jennifer's earlier post) was about the difficulty of knowing our own motivations. Most of our decision making process is not available to consciousness, so our brains end up fabricating reasons for why we acted in a particular way. It really is difficult to know.
 
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