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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by renaiziphonts View Post
    Ultimately, it doesn't matter if you're in the church of Christ our Superman, or Satan's Sharing Circle, whether you are insane, or autistic, whether you are man, woman, black or white. Everyone is unique and everyone has the same likely hood of doing good or bad. Being of a religion will not change who you are. That I am fairly passionate about, if not dramatic, but here's some logical stuff to:

    In law, it is considered illegal to kill. If it was not illegal, would you kill someone? I assume whether it is law or not doesn't change your choice, because right or wrong is only influenced by what you are told, not decided. You ultimately will have the same morality, and empathy, and will to do good, no matter where you are.
    Ah - So according to what you are saying, the people who happen to usually be Arabic Muslims who kill their sisters and daughters for dishonoring their family are not doing so because of their culture & upbringing - After all that doesn't matter - but because of who they are, and would ultimately be murdering the women in their families no matter what society they came from - as they would ultimately have the same morality and empathy, no matter where they are. Likewise, soldiers would kill regardless if they where raised to believe in defending their country and placed in a battlefield, and pickpockets would steal regardless of their socioeconomic background. After all, it's not about where you are from - but who you ultimately are.

    What about them:


    Why then did the participants of the Standford prison experiment not lead a violent criminal life before? After all, their morality and empathy (or lack thereof) was who they are ultimately are...

  2. #102
    Senior Member renaiziphonts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Ah - So according to what you are saying, the people who happen to usually be Arabic Muslims who kill their sisters and daughters for dishonoring their family are not doing so because of their culture & upbringing - After all that doesn't matter - but because of who they are, and would ultimately be murdering the women in their families no matter what society they came from - as they would ultimately have the same morality and empathy, no matter where they are. Likewise, soldiers would kill regardless if they where raised to believe in defending their country and placed in a battlefield, and pickpockets would steal regardless of their socioeconomic background. After all, it's not about where you are from - but who you ultimately are.

    What about them:


    Why then did the participants of the Standford prison experiment not lead a violent criminal life before? After all, their morality and empathy (or lack thereof) was who they are ultimately are...
    Fair enough, I wasn't intending this to be extended to third world countries. The Stanford prison experiment is also a good point, but I could bring up an alternative experiment that was done following the study. A group had asked a bunch of seminary students to do a talk on either the parabol of the good Samaritan, or the career opportunities available for seminary students. One group was asked to talk on a self serving topic, the other on the good of helping those in need. When they arrived they were told they needed to go out back to the extra building, and some were told they were late. Now between the two buildings there was a homeless man coughing in pain. Now, in all the trials -samaritan+late, samaritan+early, career+late, career+early -the same proportion of people helped the homeless man. This was a proof that your own bias and circumstance plays little role in day to day life, as far as how you behave.
    An additional experiment went on in the seventies, when a psychologist followed around a Chinese group touring america. Now, at the time china was despised in America, and laws were in place allowing any business the right to deny Chinese service, and in fact expected them to. Now, of the 100 some odd businesses, only one denied the Chinese service. He had sent them emails months later, asking if they would take in a chinese couple, and only seven said they would consider it. Another proof against biases. In day to day life, circumstance and bias actually play very little into you're actions. When you are starving, in prison, or in both (a third world country), then yeah, they will change what you, but if your neighbor Jenny has a satanic summoning circle in her back yard, it probably doesn't mean she wants to burn your house down.

  3. #103
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I wonder what percentage of Christians and other religious folks who do things "selflessly" would still do that if they didn't believe in an afterlife? How selfless is it if you are doing it for an eternal reward?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by renaiziphonts View Post
    A group had asked a bunch of seminary students to do a talk on either the parabol of the good Samaritan, or the career opportunities available for seminary students. One group was asked to talk on a self serving topic, the other on the good of helping those in need. When they arrived they were told they needed to go out back to the extra building, and some were told they were late. Now between the two buildings there was a homeless man coughing in pain. Now, in all the trials -samaritan+late, samaritan+early, career+late, career+early -the same proportion of people helped the homeless man. This was a proof that your own bias and circumstance plays little role in day to day life, as far as how you behave.
    That is not completely true. First of all it was only 40 students, a rather small number, and a study focussed on specific religious views, not ethics in general and more importantly, hurry turned out to be a determining factor. So by your own standards it "was proof" that circumstances do matter.

    http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/or...y_samarit.html
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Hitoshi-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Yes, but my thing is I'm not relgious at all and people have told me I can't possibly be a good person at all, that I have no morals or ethics when I do. what's you're take on those people? the ones that think I'm going to hell because I don't believe.
    I agree 100% with this! Decent people don't go around telling others they're going to hell and they're weak sinners just because they don't value or believe in the same things. A halfway worthwhile person would appreciate you and respect you no matter what. It makes me so angry because I'm not religious whatsoever and my family and I have gotten crap from those who were.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by renaiziphonts View Post
    Fair enough, I wasn't intending this to be extended to third world countries. [...] When you are starving, in prison, or in both (a third world country), then yeah, they will change what you
    Discarding this is more a problem then you make it out to be - because you are already setting up a very narrow range of circumstances in terms of cultural upbringing and socioeconomic levels and experience with authority positions. Even placing aside the conflicting result Red Herring linked (Showing that people in a hurry are less likely to help), finding situations in which a circumstance didn't change the effect on the results within the preset circumstances will prove just that: Within a limited circumstances, there are circumstances which do not effect who you are. The generalization of that - stating that within a narrow set of limited circumstances circumstances do not change who you are - is an oxymoron.

    I do appreciate that you are willing to openly debate a belief you are passionate about. That shows guts. Would you have the the same willingness if you were raised to believe that even stopping to question your beliefs would bring the wraith of a deity and condemn you for all eternal?

  7. #107
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Do religious people - particularly belonging to religions of moral dogma - genuinely care about others well being? Or are they simply acting out of their own (Imagined) self interest (Scoring points for their afterlife game)? How can you know? How can they? Are there any situations in which acting for the benefit of others would not be in their own spiritual interest?

    Disclaimer: I don't mean simply in action, but in terms of intent.
    I would argue that anyone with an id (unconsciousness) at work, will ultimately make people act in terms of trying to offset that darkness by some desire that will play itself out through a style of attachment, to consequence (which in Sattva types has more to do with si, and in rajas it has more to do with te, and tamas it has more to do with fi [very generally speaking])

    I guess I'm being a lot more broad in my assessment of this question, but I think one can trace the substance of my above assertion to then also say: anyone who is at all philosophically minded in their engagement is more overtly prone by what I've stated above.

    I think the crux of acting genuinely decent, has more to do with finding your own true self-interest, that can then perhaps be shared non-violently in a community, rather than miss-judging interests (in varying degree's of pettiness) because of their concern with the self, or those concerned with some great external ideal (which I think are actually the one's who suffer from (an insane) kind of deluded self service, albeit much more sophisticated in its assessment of circumstance).
    Last edited by Zangetshumody; 08-08-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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  8. #108
    Senior Member renaiziphonts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That is not completely true. First of all it was only 40 students, a rather small number, and a study focussed on specific religious views, not ethics in general and more importantly, hurry turned out to be a determining factor. So by your own standards it "was proof" that circumstances do matter.

    Darley and Batson: Good Samaritan Study
    Okay, but the circumstance they were focusing on was in fact the bias of their talk. Will talking on the need to help the sick and injured affect their own need to help the sick and injured? No. It really won't. There are similar tests, but I'd have to spend a bit of time searching.

    Thank you, though, I'm always glad to be proved wrong.

  9. #109
    Senior Member renaiziphonts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Discarding this is more a problem then you make it out to be - because you are already setting up a very narrow range of circumstances in terms of cultural upbringing and socioeconomic levels and experience with authority positions. Even placing aside the conflicting result Red Herring linked (Showing that people in a hurry are less likely to help), finding situations in which a circumstance didn't change the effect on the results within the preset circumstances will prove just that: Within a limited circumstances, there are circumstances which do not effect who you are. The generalization of that - stating that within a narrow set of limited circumstances circumstances do not change who you are - is an oxymoron.

    I do appreciate that you are willing to openly debate a belief you are passionate about. That shows guts. Would you have the the same willingness if you were raised to believe that even stopping to question your beliefs would bring the wraith of a deity and condemn you for all eternal?
    I'm actually not religious. I'm agnostic. Heavily agnostic. I don't place faith in god, but I lack the hubris to denounce that which I can not understand. The Hindus(?) believed that god was infinite, and we were infinitely limited. We could not understand him ever, for we could only ever see the slightest sliver of his work. It isn't proof, but the paradox of god is he can't be disproved.

    Further, in the specific topic, a rush to a deadline may be one of the biggest factors in deciding how a modern day christian will behave. They aren't all in prison, and they aren't all in third world countries, so my narrow set is the largest set.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    I think this picture should settle the matter once and for all:
    It says nothing about whether the religion itself is moral.

    I would argue that your "good" Christians and Muslims just ignore the hateful passages in their holy books, which makes them heretics. After all, who could possibly know better than god how his religion should be interpreted? Who are you to ignore some of his word and accept the other? Just another idiot human.

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