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Thread: Human rights

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I agree with @ginniebean and I'm a libertarian, but it's not the vehemence in assertion that makes the notion of inalienable rights "solid"; it's the evidence from practicing these principles and the tremendous success of the USA that makes such principles "solid". As they say, the proof of the pudding is in its eating thereof.
    I agree with your line of reasoning more than hers in this case; though I'm sure we'd disagree about the extent to which people should have rights.

    It is better to think about what should work best (and there are a number of ways to estimate this) in making decisions on what should be awarded, as opposed to the feelings of a moment. It concerns me a lot that people are highly emotionally invested in their views, which makes it hard to have a calm discussion about them.

    Contrary to what people may think, there is little in my perception of rights - and this can be extended to positions I take on an issue generally - that i wouldn't alter if I could be convinced that doing so would benefit me and people I care about, as well as making society as a whole more stable and prosperous, in the long term.

  2. #22
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    Human rights are important, because, where they are ignored, you just see various factions with grievances enacting a never-ending cycle of vengeance. Ignoring universals is detrimental to harmony.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #23
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo
    Contrary to what people may think, there is little in my perception of rights - and this can be extended to positions I take on an issue generally - that i wouldn't alter if I could be convinced that doing so would benefit me and people I care about, as well as making society as a whole more stable and prosperous, in the long term.
    Someone very recently posted an excellent blog entry about rights. I tend to agree with this person, especially on the provision that rights are not claims on others. If you have a right, that right shouldn't require others to pay for it. By this definition, that would exclude universal healthcare, public education, clean water, and marriage.

    What Is A Right? by Fulton Huxtable May 29, 2014
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    If you have a right, that right shouldn't require others to pay for it.
    You're against police and armies, and for the restoration of an irregular militia to secure a right to life?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    it's not the vehemence in assertion that makes the notion of inalienable rights "solid"; it's the evidence from practicing these principles and the tremendous success of the USA that makes such principles "solid". As they say, the proof of the pudding is in its eating thereof.
    The Enlightenment gave the West the values of freedom and equality. And the values of freedom and equality are maximised by the limitation of power. And so in liberal democracy, freedom limits equality, and equality limits freedom.

    Unfortunately the USA is not a liberal democracy, the USA is a bourgeois democracy. As a result the USA has the highest level of inequality of any developed country.

    But worse, the USA uses its power to export inequality to other countries.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2
    You're against police and armies, and for the restoration of an irregular militia to secure a right to life?
    Of course not. I do want people to understand what a right is. The protection we receive from police and the military are services, not rights. I'm not sure what you mean by irregular militia, but the right to life, in my opinion, means that the government shouldn't be allowed to kill someone arbitrarily. It doesn't mean the government is required to provide shelter and food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole
    As a result the USA has the highest level of inequality of any developed country.
    Inequality is just a reflection of diversity and everyone should embrace diversity.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Of course not. I do want people to understand what a right is. The protection we receive from police and the military are services, not rights. I'm not sure what you mean by irregular militia, but the right to life, in my opinion, means that the government shouldn't be allowed to kill someone arbitrarily. It doesn't mean the government is required to provide shelter and food.
    I'm not arguing about providing shelter and food or positive rights. I am specifically talking about the negative right to life, and the institutions that exist for protecting them. Institutions which cost money.

    You don't think the military and the police protect your right to life ? What are they for, then? What do those services do? Isn't this the essential function of those services? It's the primary role of government (in addition to protecting property rights) according to minarchism, which I suspect you advocate. Yet you argued that a right shouldn't require others to pay for it. I'd just like to know your thinking here.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  8. #28
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2
    You don't think the military and the police protect your right to life ?
    Exactly. I don't think the right to life includes having others protect you; it just means that the government can't kill you without a very good reason.

    What are they for, then? What do those services do? Isn't this the essential function of those services, as well as the primary role of government according to minarchism?
    Every society needs law and order in order for commerce to proceed. Yes, it's an essential function, but it's not to protect the right of life.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Exactly. I don't think the right to life includes having others protect you; it just means that the government can't kill you without a very good reason.



    Every society needs law and order in order for commerce to proceed. Yes, it's an essential function, but it's not to protect the right of life.
    OK then. I propose that we prevent the police from acting against murderers, so they are free to protect property. Think about how much effort and wasteful spending we could prevent if we merely outsourced the defense of the right to life to the citizenry. The government will then be able to devote more attention to property rights. After all, I can choose to arm myself if I truly care about my rights.

    The military is trickier, but it could be justified based on the fact that an attack against the U.S. would not merely be an attack against citizens, but an attack against property. Think of all the commercial rental revenue that was lost on 9/11. It is fairly disgusting that the 9/11 memorial does not include a section about all the monetary damage that occurred. We can also stop paying for the funerals of military services, as the lives of the soldiers is ultimately not our responsibility. Let's get rid of this wasteful spending, and leave it to the families of the soldiers who volunteered to foot their own bill, instead of foisting it off on hardworking taxpayers.

    An irregular militia would involve something like what existed during the Articles of Confederation or in the colonies prior to the revolutionary war.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2
    I propose that we prevent the police from acting against murderers
    Just because the police aren't there to protect the right of life doesn't mean it's not a good service to have. The right of free speech just means the government shouldn't shut you up; it doesn't require anyone else to do things for you. The right to practice religion doesn't require anyone to do things for you. Same with all other rights. If it requires someone to get up early and go to work to pay for it, it's not a right.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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