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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This would only be true if we didn't subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which protects the rights of the individual and the rights of minorities.
    If so why are there hate speech laws and CCTV everywhere?

  2. #12
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    As am I.



    Science began and flourished in the preceding Age of Reason. This occurred, like the Enlightenment, in a period of absolutism politically, more so than I would ever suggest (at least outside Britain and America).
    The Enlightenment and the Age of Reason are seen as synonymous, usually. You are the first person I have ever encountered who separated the two.

    At the time of the Enlightenment itself there were no mass democracies as this form of government was not invented until after WWI. What I am trying to say is the ideas that led to it as a consequence of Enlightenment thinking, and that the period in European history where we had the most power and the most progress was made, from 1814 to 1914, was not democratic.
    It was more democratic than the preceding period.


    Instead it had some degree of balance between the monarchy and landed gentry, and parliament. Where that balance lay depended from country to country. Voting rights were much more exclusive than they are now as well, which I think is a good rather than a bad thing.
    But the fact that they existed and had an increasing influence is a product of the enlightenment.


    But as I just mentioned above, science was becoming increasingly accepted by the 18th century anyway - we had had Boyle, Newton and Leibniz by then - and the churches were in a downward spiral.
    The printing press helped play a role in all of that. (Noooo, don't bring McLuhan into this... you know who you are.) You're also separating something that usually isn't separated from the Age of Reason.

    Unlike in the absolute monarchies of the past, what i am suggesting is elected dictatorship. Basically someone, or a small group of people, invested with a large amount of power but who have a fixed period of time with which they have it. This prevents some of the problems you are suggesting, while giving the opportunity for someone to make a big contribution to the country.
    A strong executive with a weak legislature? But the thing is this, true dictatorships do not have term limits. Your system is more democratic and infected by the Enlightenment than you realize. Sounds Hobbesian. But Hobbes himself was a product of the Enlightenment, as I define it.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #13
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    [QUOTE=msg_v2;2326451]The Enlightenment and the Age of Reason are seen as synonymous, usually. You are the first person I have ever encountered who separated the two.

    The Age of Reason was directly followed by the Age of Enlightenment.

    17th-century philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It was more democratic than the preceding period.
    The political atmosphere before the French Revolution was very absolutist outside the Anglosphere. it is true that the rulers at that time took more interest in granting their subjects some rights, but for the mst part they didn't encourage the Enlightenment thinkers, for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    But the fact that they existed and hand an increasing influence is a product of the enlightenment.
    Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    A strong executive with a weak legislature? But the thing is this, true dictatorships do not have term limits. Your system is more democratic and infected by the Enlightenment than you realize. Sounds Hobbesian. But Hobbes himself was a product of the Enlightenment, as I define it.
    Hobbes died before the Enlightenment started.

  4. #14
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The Enlightenment and the Age of Reason are seen as synonymous, usually. You are the first person I have ever encountered who separated the two.

    The Age of Reason was directly followed by the Age of Enlightenment.

    17th-century philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    The political atmosphere before the French Revolution was very absolutist outside the Anglosphere. it is true that the rulers at that time took more interest in granting their subjects some rights, but for the mst part they didn't encourage the Enlightenment thinkers, for obvious reasons.



    Magna Carta and the English Bill of Rights?



    Hobbes died before the Enlightenment started.
    Let's get down to the point, rather than definitions of what constitutes the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason.

    How do you feel about individual rights? Should they be done away with? Should they be kept?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Let's get down to the point, rather than definitions of what constitutes the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason.

    How do you feel about individual rights? Should they be done away with? Should they be kept?
    I think some individual rights are very important, such as the right to own property, speak freely and form political associations, have a fair trial and have your privacy respected.

    I do not view voting as a right. I do not view healthcare and social welfare as rights.

    My main gripe with you people is likely to be voting; that anyone over a certain age can vote, regardless of anything else, is an abomination.

    I like this blogpost (and Occam's Razor blog in general) Human BioDiversity and the Dark Enlightenment | Occam's Razor. It summarizes the views I have very well.

  6. #16
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I think some individual rights are very important, such as the right to own property, speak freely and form political associations, have a fair trial and have your privacy respected.

    I do not view voting as a right. I do not view healthcare and social welfare as rights.

    My main gripe with you people is likely to be voting; that anyone over a certain age can vote, regardless of anything else, is an abomination.
    It still seems like you have retained certain Enlightment principles, if not others. Even if we treat the enlightenment separate to the age of reason, some of what you are in favor of includes enlightenment ideas.

    BTW, universal sufferage did not exist in the late-18th century U.S. or France.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It still seems like you have retained certain Enlightment principles, if not others. Even if we treat the enlightenment separate to the age of reason, some of what you are in favor of includes enlightenment ideas.

    BTW, universal sufferage did not exist in the late-18th century U.S. or France.
    My point is that these developments are a consequence of the way Enlightenment thinking inevitably would be interpreted.

    The 18th century claim that "all men are equal" really referred to white, middle class men wanting to be equal with the nobility. However, the aforementioned phrase has been interpreted by later individuals to mean something much different: that all people are the same and there should be no distinctions between them.

    No Enlightenment philosophes believed this BS but its their intellectual legacy and is responsible for most of the issues I complain about on the forum.

  8. #18
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    My point is that these developments are a consequence of the way Enlightenment thinking inevitably would be interpreted.

    The 18th century claim that "all men are equal" really referred to white, middle class men wanting to be equal with the nobility. However, the aforementioned phrase has been interpreted by later individuals to mean something much different: that all people are the same and there should be no distinctions between them.

    No Enlightenment philosophes believed this BS but its their intellectual legacy and is responsible for most of the issues I complain about on the forum.
    Hmmm... so it seems you are backtracking on your hatred of the enlightenment. You seem to be saying "actually, I love enlightenment ideas, but I hate the the interpretations of them that came about in the 19th and 20th centuries."

    I'm guessing you would not be in favor of restrictions based on being a land-holder, but argue for restrictions based on other criteria. Do you think that those restrictions are unfair, and should be divided up more equally? So much for believing in the inequality of humans.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  9. #19
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    Comparisons are instructive.

    So which nations reject the Enlightenment values of evidence and reason, freedom and equality?

    Well the 57 nations of the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Co-operation) have publicly and openly rejected Enlightement values in favour of Sharia.

    Sharia opposes Enlightenment values with blind belief, submission, discrimination, backed by Jihad.

    The comparison of the newly created Caliphate, called the Islamic State (IS), out of Iraq and Syria, with the Australian State (Oz), out of the Scottish and English Enlightenment, is instructive.

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