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  1. #51
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.
    yes, you have to qualify the hell out of what you said because you have nothing to offer. whatever. you can have the last word. makes no difference to me.

  2. #52
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is simply not true. People find hope and satisfaction is a variety of things. Nature made sure that family, friends, and children are most important to human beings.
    This is of course largely an opinion based topic. It's a pretty obvious fact though that people are only a temporary satisfaction and source of hope. I love my family dearly, but I know they (like me) are temporary and thus I can't be completed or find my purpose solely in them. If I did, I'd be totally destroyed if/when something were to happen to them. I will feel great sadness when that happens someday, but I know that my hope and anchor is in something larger (and so is theirs). That hope gives me immense freedom from fear or worry. Which brings me to this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Seriously, does Christianity make people immune to common sense?
    Yes and no.

    Yes: It frees us from being chained down by fear, anxiety, legalism and many of the limitations of this world. I've seen and experienced some ridiculous things that came to be because the person in question allowed themselves to give control to God and not fret over "common sense". I know that sounds weird, and it's of course completely contrary to our nature as humans-- to give up control. But when we do, things we thought impossible can happen. The financial provision to pursue that business venture that we feel called to, comes out of left field. The test comes back cancer-free when the patient was given 2 weeks to live. I decide to go after an idea that I have, even when everyone I know thinks it's silly-- and it turns into something awesome. I get diagnosed at 15 with a disorder that completely train-wrecks 8 years of my life, but by breathing deep and saying, "okay God", years later I see those dark years used for good. That's the beauty in my belief that God is way bigger than me and has my back, because of that no unknown is scary for me. I trust (and have seen) that all my pain and negative experiences will be redeemed for good and that God will use me wherever I am. It's a freedom unlike any other I've experienced.

    No: God gave us a brain for a reason, he loves that we think and wonder and question. He says "seek and you will find me", he invites us to investigate Him, ask questions, study and find Him in our own way-- and He promises to meet us there if we are open to Him. Many people who doubted the existence of God have done just that and He met them-- I mean, there have to be 100's of books by people about that. C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel are two of my favorites on that list.

    But you know, at the end of the day, whatever floats your boat. I have a policy to respect people where they are at and only contribute what I think (or believe) if they ask (as you have).
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    What is the fixed standard for a better life? Is it not merely a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality in which case "better" is whatever you want it to be.
    There is no fixed standard. It is, if you want to put it that way, a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality, making it whatever you want it to be. That does not make 'better' an imaginary concept, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    yes, you have to qualify the hell out of what you said because you have nothing to offer. whatever. you can have the last word. makes no difference to me.
    Your failure to comprehend simple common-sense arguments is entirely your problem. What kind of moron would claim that everyone's future is going to be better than their present or past?

  4. #54
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is, if you want to put it that way, a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality, making it whatever you want it to be.
    I do want to put it that way, because it's accurate. You're talking in terms and language that developed with a different set of presuppositions as your own so it's better that we be accurate lest people think that you share more in common with those ideals than you really do.

    That does not make 'better' an imaginary concept, though.
    Well, at least we agree it's subjective. The individual desires and the correlation can be real, but the concept of better is not only subjective in your world, but inherently qualitative and based on the notion of good which can't exist in your world. This is especially true when talking about a "better future."

    Perhaps it would be best if you just said that "People can hope that their preferences are met in the future."

  5. #55
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post

    Your failure to comprehend simple common-sense arguments is entirely your problem. What kind of moron would claim that everyone's future is going to be better than their present or past?
    did you really not realize i was playing the pharisee to your pharisee?

    okay, i really am done now. let's all watch while nic continues to argue.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're talking in terms and language that developed with a different set of presuppositions as your own [...]
    Bullshit. Since everything else is built on that premise, the rest of your argument is also bullshit. 'Good' is not a religious term.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    did you really not realize i was playing the pharisee to your pharisee?
    You failed. Not to mention that this act makes no sense whatsoever.

  7. #57
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Bullshit. Since everything else is built on that premise, the rest of your argument is also bullshit. 'Good' is not a religious term.
    We mean distinctly different things when we use the term. The fact that we call many of the same things good is irrelevant.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We mean distinctly different things when we use the term. The fact that we call many of the same things good is irrelevant.
    Correct. So what is your problem?

  9. #59
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default A Supernatural Being or Self Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why not give them hope and community instead of a false belief in supernatural supervision?
    This is a good question. And just the kind of question we would expect from Nicodemus.

    And a good question deserves a good answer.

    For instance, we can believe in a supernatural being in Alcoholics Anonymous or we can help ourselves at SHARE!

    So a belief in a supernatural being is not necessary to learn to share and thrive.

    So click on SHARE!

  10. #60
    Junior Member Brimstone's Avatar
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    I ended up homeless last year, I got by on my own and in my own way, realise I was lucky to have options most others dont.

    its a long story, but it boiled down to being alone, not trusting anyone, I was at rock bottom, no family, no friends, I turned to the church...........and I think it was a huge mistake, they did some good at first, welcomed me in, but as soon as it was obvious I wasnt going to swallow their docrtine I was insidiously pushed away. I tried other places that had christians and the same happened. Its done more harm than good, I avoid them like the plague now, some of the worlds worst people I know, they seem like respectful citizens but if you arent one of them, they turn on you. even the vicar made up his mind about me, even though he was wrong. one thing ive noticed, once a christian has made their mind up, its cast in stone! too judgemental. I would have expected compassion, a bit of love and understanding, an open mind. Real love and compassion is hard to find, certainly the real deal, not fake words and promises. Id echo what was said above, be genuine, totally transparent, and really know you want to do this for their help alone, be totally selfless, dont do it to make yourself look good or feel better, abused people are used to seeing through people, their trust in humanity has been severely damaged. I expect most will just want genuine help and some compassion, if they become chistian or not is another matter, dont push them into it.

    Hope is key - and that lies in the future, and in meaning.
    Relationships - love, hugs, shared tears, and laughter are required to mend the broken hearts and restore trust
    knowledge - to think for themselves, to learn, become cognizant of their situation and how to move forwards, thats dignity.
    time - like a reaction to grief, there is a special type of healing that only time can do, and it weaves through everything we do.
    spirit - the human spirit, it can survive, its strong enough, it overcomes situations and circumstance.

    and thats just my personal formula for getting through it all. its a work in progress. spirit, hope, and knowledge are keeping me afloat.

    best of luck to you.

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