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  1. #41
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is simply not true. People find hope and satisfaction is a variety of things. Nature made sure that family, friends, and children are most important to human beings.
    what sort of hope do you offer someone in their 20s or 30s who is dying of cancer? i know 2 people experiencing that. i know another in her 30s with huntington's disease which is just horrific. how would you give hope to her husband and baby? i'm asking for an honest answer here. eta: what is the "better future" that you speak of to those who are dying at a young age?

    family, friends et al can all leave, die, be wonderful, terrible or anywhere in between depending on the day and a host of other factors. material things can be wiped out in a NY minute. that's all a pretty flimsy hope to build on.

    personally, i wouldn't put my trust in nature. she seems pretty pissed off these days.

    As for 'making whole', what does that even mean?
    with a name like nicodemus i'd think you'd know. i guess you're just blowing smoke. you do know that ole nic did become a follower of jesus, right? who knows, maybe there is even hope for you.

    as for 'making whole'...shalom: wholeness, peace, healing, prosperity, etc. etc.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    what sort of hope do you offer someone in their 20s or 30s who is dying of cancer?
    Hope for a relatively painless death.



    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    i know another in her 30s with huntington's disease which is just horrific. how would you give hope to her husband and baby? i'm asking for an honest answer here. eta: what is the "better future" that you speak of to those who are dying at a young age?
    They have none.

    O God, give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed,
    The courage to change what can be changed,
    and the wisdom to know the one from the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    family, friends et al can all leave, die, be wonderful, terrible or anywhere in between depending on the day and a host of other factors. material things can be wiped out in a NY minute. that's all a pretty flimsy hope to build on.
    That is all there is. And all of it is less flimsy than the phantom you would build your hopes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    with a name like nicodemus i'd think you'd know. i guess you're just blowing smoke. you do know that ole nic did become a follower of jesus, right? who knows, maybe there is even hope for you.

    as for 'making whole'...shalom: wholeness, peace, healing, prosperity, etc. etc.
    I do have a notion of what 'making whole' is supposed to mean; I just think that it is vacuous, like 'divine', 'all-powerful', 'blessed'.

  3. #43
    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why not give them hope and community instead of a false belief in supernatural supervision?
    To begin with answering that question I'm going to go more in depth in what I mean when I say I don't believe in the religious aspects if you don't care you can skip to the next paragraph. To begin with I don't believe in the fundamentalist young creationist theory that the world is only 6,000 years old as far as I can tell God woke up with a hard one and was so hard and hot to the point that he couldn't contain it anymore and jizzed the universe out unto mother nature and we are the ever evolving creation of the two of them you can watch Cosmos: A Space Odyssey for the rest of the info. I also find that most of the Old Testament stories are simply allegories that where created to help the Jews live good moral lives, Christ was a rebellious bad-ass with quotes like "the first will be last and the last will be first" and he may or may not have resurrected. I don't care for the existence of heaven or hell and what Christians have envisioned the two to be may be illusions to what the after life is, similar to people moving to the States for the American Dream only to find out that is a lie. To finish off this rant shrooms are equally potent in giving people a spiritual encounter with God as prayer is.

    Now that I'm done with that I'm going to answer your question. Human beings are in search of being complete (this has become more potent with the creation of the media/advertisement then it was before) and sadly in search to being complete people become obliged to having others tell them what to do and what they need we see this in consumerism, the search for popularity, relationships etc. Now no matter what they do people will never become complete unless they give up all hope because they will always want something more after they have obtained an objective. The symbol for people are the all consuming whore and where I see God (it isn't the only way) coming in is by having these people that can't simply be satisfied with facing reality a hope that they don't need to obtain but is simply given to them and it will forever be theirs no matter what they do (through the Resurrection of Christ all are given Grace.) That's where the question of people being left behind by their parents for being homosexual (I bet you can add in more groups) come in, these people are driven by image and the seeking to be respected by their community instead of living a Christ-like life and we can see this by reading the New Testament, there is no indication in that Christ would've acted in a similar way the sad truth is that their are few genuine Christians out there (Christ is dead in America.)

    To summarize I'm not trying to give people a truth I'm offering them a life-style that satisfies

  4. #44
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post

    They have none.
    and yet you posted that you can offer people hope in "a better future". keep blowin' that smoke nic…

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptoGypsy View Post
    Even though I don't believe in the religious aspects of Christianity. I've seen what it has done in peoples lives and I see the potential in what it can do for a person that needs hope and a community. Therefore I'm starting starting a program with the youth ministry that I go to currently. I'm open to any questions, ideas and feedback you may have to offer me in this endeavor
    And a new cult has begun....

  6. #46
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    and yet you posted that you can offer people hope in "a better future". keep blowin' that smoke nic…
    No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.

    Seriously, does Christianity make people immune to common sense?

  7. #47
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.
    "Better" is an imaginary concept. There is only the future.

    Why do you want people to have hope in something that isn't real?

  8. #48
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Just had an thought-provoking discussion yesterday in one of my classes. That faith and spirituality can be a great resource to a lot of patients. There has been a lot of interesting research about this interaction between physical/emotional health and well-being and an individual's spirituality.

    Our role as practitioners isn't to agree or disagree with where people are spiritually, or to try to get patients to see things a particular way, but to try to meet them where they are, support them, help find a way to use that spirituality as a resource during their treatments (if it is something they will find helpful and meaningful). Of course some people will have zero interest in this, some people will find meaning and hope in other aspects of life beside a religion or a spiritual belief (eg family, friends, spending time with pets, going for walks in the woods... whatever), and that is what we work with.

    I found that the discussion to tap into some of my own perspectives, even though it's a bit weird to contemplate actually integrating into practice - just because the standard medical model is so very dry and scientific. I don't think believing in something supernatural or an afterlife is a false, empty hope, if that is what is sincerely in a person's heart. And I don't think finding meaning in the here and now is empty either.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    "Better" is an imaginary concept. There is only the future.

    Why do you want people to have hope in something that isn't real?
    I disagree with the premise.

  10. #50
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I disagree with the premise.
    What is the fixed standard for a better life? Is it not merely a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality in which case "better" is whatever you want it to be.

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