The most Atheist Atheist.

[skylights]

So there's this idea that an apostate is more atheist because they have the experience of rejecting an ideology. This is not self-evident. There needs to be some serious arguments to validate the idea that rejecting one ideology makes your freer than not having it. I think of Ayn Rand, who fiercely rejected the ideology of the Soviets, and in doing so moved into a totally blind acceptance of a different ideology. I grant that an apostate may have more experience with applying critical thought to their world view than a born atheist, but in the conversation I've had with apostates it seems like some part of them still clings to religion in a way that I've not found lifelong atheists to do. One area where is pretty consistently comes up is arguing that god does not matter, that is, even god's existence is not fundamentally important and would not satisfy the toughest questions. I find life long atheists usually agree with this, while apostates usually do not.

This is a really good point.

I went to Catholic school, and we had a joke that Catholic school creates more atheists and agnostics than any other institution.

But the truth is, most previous Catholics still have some kind of attachment to the religion. Either we still say a prayer once in a while, or we still like sitting in an empty church once in a while, or we still like the smell of the overwhelming incense they used when we were children, or we find Protestants particularly annoying. I think old religions die hard. Belief sets connect with us at some emotional memory level that I think is extremely difficult to disconnect from.

 

[Mole]

Ducklings and Catholics

This is a really good point.

I went to Catholic school, and we had a joke that Catholic school creates more atheists and agnostics than any other institution.

But the truth is, most previous Catholics still have some kind of attachment to the religion. Either we still say a prayer once in a while, or we still like sitting in an empty church once in a while, or we still like the smell of the overwhelming incense they used when we were children, or we find Protestants particularly annoying. I think old religions die hard. Belief sets connect with us at some emotional memory level that I think is extremely difficult to disconnect from.

Yes, just as ducklings imprint on their mother duck, so as catholicings we imprinted on the Church.

As small children we have yet to develop our critical faculties and so believe whatever we are told. But it is far more powerful than belief, it is visceral, it affects all our senses and our orientation. And also it affects our very identity.

And just as ducklings identify as ducks, we identify as catholics.

But it remains true that the best antidote against religion is a catholic education.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I don't remember if I posted in this thread once, but here are some thoughts...

What's being proposed here is a particular interpretation of Christianity. Everyone seems to have a different one. And from what I've studied of early Christian scholarship (more than I ever wanted to) it seems this was true all the way back to the beginning. In other words, I'm not convinced that we can generalize that early Christians were freer from ideology because I do not see compelling evidence that this truly was the fundamental point and early Christians understood it.

Regardless of what early Christians had in mind, that of course has little relevance to what modern Christians think. It has evolved to a great extent and in many different directions and I certainly don't believe that modern Christians have a belief that makes them more independent of ideology or without a Big Other.

So there's this idea that an apostate is more atheist because they have the experience of rejecting an ideology. This is not self-evident. There needs to be some serious arguments to validate the idea that rejecting one ideology makes your freer than not having it. I think of Ayn Rand, who fiercely rejected the ideology of the Soviets, and in doing so moved into a totally blind acceptance of a different ideology. I grant that an apostate may have more experience with applying critical thought to their world view than a born atheist, but in the conversation I've had with apostates it seems like some part of them still clings to religion in a way that I've not found lifelong atheists to do. One area where is pretty consistently comes up is arguing that god does not matter, that is, even god's existence is not fundamentally important and would not satisfy the toughest questions. I find life long atheists usually agree with this, while apostates usually do not.

Excellent post. I think there is a tendency for people who reject one ideology to maintain the internal framework of that ideology and then fill it with a new set of details. They maintain a dogmatic, often binary, internal theory that they impose on reality without having a good process for revising their understanding of the world based on encounters with new information. What you describe in the life-long atheist is someone who has neither the internal framework or contents of an ideology.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

There is beauty in hammering down truth, unless said truth is full of lies.

[MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION]
[MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]
and myself learned that the painful, scarring way.

Ex-theist?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I found this to be quite humorous. Thanks

 

[Avocado]

Ex-theist?

Yes, I am an Ex-theist. I was once the exact kind of theist I deem so dangerous to society, too. Deconversion led to a huge personality change for me. I am now a super social liberal, abortion being the only thing I have doubts over. I see adoption as better if its an option. I am still pro-choice in practice, though.

I digressed, though. Are you an Ex-theist?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Yes, I am an Ex-theist. I was once the exact kind of theist I deem so dangerous to society, too. Deconversion led to a huge personality change for me. I am now a super social liberal, abortion being the only thing I have doubts over. I see adoption as better if its an option. I am still pro-choice in practice, though.

I digressed, though. Are you an Ex-theist?

I never adopted theism growing up, just never bought into any of it, so I stayed atheist even before I knew that's what I was/am. I've personally known several ex-theists though and understand just how difficult and transformational/painful the process can be. I'm glad you seem to have fared well

I'd say that while Richard Dawkins has a high profile as being quite the Atheist. My vote for hardest core, "king of the hill", take no prisoners atheist HAS to go towards the late Christopher Hitchens. While Mr. Dawkin's makes quite the front man, Hitch is in the trenches debating (formal and otherwise), showing up at discussions and just letting loose. Quite the verbal pugilist really, hence the coining of Hitchslap.

 

[Avocado]

I never adopted theism growing up, just never bought into any of it, so I stayed atheist even before I knew that's what I was/am. I've personally known several ex-theists though and understand just how difficult and transformational/painful the process can be. I'm glad you seem to have fared well

I'd say that while Richard Dawkins has a high profile as being quite the Atheist. My vote for hardest core, "king of the hill", take no prisoners atheist HAS to go towards the late Christopher Hitchens. While Mr. Dawkin's makes quite the front man, Hitch is in the trenches debating (formal and otherwise), showing up at discussions and just letting loose. Quite the verbal pugilist really, hence the coining of Hitchslap.

He is one good debater.

To your other point:
I struggle with difficulties every day with my family when I don't put down the gays or other religious groups like they do, or even if I don't place our race at the center of the universe with everything I mention. They have issues when I experience wonder about something but don't acknowledge their deity. I've always been a loner, but I find being out in society more draining than ever, and I dislike leaving my room. I do this warm, smiley thing on the surface, but right beneath that, there is strong resentment when I have to deal with people. That said, I still want to help people from a distance, and wish people well. I just want them to leave me to my solitude when I'm done.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

He is one good debater.

To your other point:
I struggle with difficulties every day with my family when I don't put down the gays or other religious groups like they do, or even if I don't place our race at the center of the universe with everything I mention. They have issues when I experience wonder about something but don't acknowledge their deity. I've always been a loner, but I find being out in society more draining than ever, and I dislike leaving my room. I do this warm, smiley thing on the surface, but right beneath that, there is strong resentment when I have to deal with people. That said, I still want to help people from a distance, and wish people well. I just want them to leave me to my solitude when I'm done.

I understand these feelings you are conveying well. May I suggest checking out this website? Recovering From Religion It's really a good site with plenty of outlets and paths one can take to find support. I'd also suggest simply looking around the interwebs for atheist/secular friendly websites (I found Raising Atheist Children In A World Full Of Gods. - Atheist Parents: Parenting Without Belief to be useful, when I became a parent) that fall in line with your interests. There are usually subsections to these that can point you to useful resources.

I once had a wife (wifey #1 , 7 years) who went from apatheist to Evangelical Christian and like most converts was quite zealous in the new identity that she was internalizing. I even bought a book on the subject to try to understand matters The Transformed Self: The Psychology of Religious Conversion (Emotions, Personality, and Psychotherapy): Chana Ullman: 9780306431340: Amazon.com: Books This conversion greatly exacerbated our relationship problems and was a part of the reason for our divorce in the end. Fortunately no kids were involved.

That said, being familiar with the nature of conversion, whichever direction, has tempered how I speak with people, lest I be the cause of this potential turmoil. I ask myself, now that I know what deconversion/conversion does to a person and the people they love & know, the isolation, the ostracization etc. not to mention the potential for depression and existential crisis, am I willing to do this to someone? If so, why? It's a whole little process for me really with exceptions and loopholes, i.e. someone proselytizing, how "far" to go, etc. On the other end, I wholeheartedly agree with The Four Horsemen (New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), with Hitchens being my fav It's quite the tightrope and conflicting for me, but a necessary process imo, due to the implications in both directions, inaction vs. action.

Be well [MENTION=18694]Magic Qwan[/MENTION]

 

[Mole]

I understand these feelings you are conveying well. May I suggest checking out this website? Recovering From Religion It's really a good site with plenty of outlets and paths one can take to find support. I'd also suggest simply looking around the interwebs for atheist/secular friendly websites (I found Raising Atheist Children In A World Full Of Gods. - Atheist Parents: Parenting Without Belief to be useful, when I became a parent) that fall in line with your interests. There are usually subsections to these that can point you to useful resources.

I once had a wife (wifey #1 , 7 years) who went from apatheist to Evangelical Christian and like most converts was quite zealous in the new identity that she was internalizing. I even bought a book on the subject to try to understand matters The Transformed Self: The Psychology of Religious Conversion (Emotions, Personality, and Psychotherapy): Chana Ullman: 9780306431340: Amazon.com: Books This conversion greatly exacerbated our relationship problems and was a part of the reason for our divorce in the end. Fortunately no kids were involved.

That said, being familiar with the nature of conversion, whichever direction, has tempered how I speak with people, lest I be the cause of this potential turmoil. I ask myself, now that I know what deconversion/conversion does to a person and the people they love & know, the isolation, the ostracization etc. not to mention the potential for depression and existential crisis, am I willing to do this to someone? If so, why? It's a whole little process for me really with exceptions and loopholes, i.e. someone proselytizing, how "far" to go, etc. On the other end, I wholeheartedly agree with The Four Horsemen (New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), with Hitchens being my fav It's quite the tightrope and conflicting for me, but a necessary process imo, due to the implications in both directions, inaction vs. action.

Be well [MENTION=18694]Magic Qwan[/MENTION]

Sorry about your divorce.

But I might add that as a general rule, and there are exceptions, the more educated are less likely to be religious.

 

[Avocado]

I understand these feelings you are conveying well. May I suggest checking out this website? Recovering From Religion It's really a good site with plenty of outlets and paths one can take to find support. I'd also suggest simply looking around the interwebs for atheist/secular friendly websites (I found Raising Atheist Children In A World Full Of Gods. - Atheist Parents: Parenting Without Belief to be useful, when I became a parent) that fall in line with your interests. There are usually subsections to these that can point you to useful resources.

I once had a wife (wifey #1 , 7 years) who went from apatheist to Evangelical Christian and like most converts was quite zealous in the new identity that she was internalizing. I even bought a book on the subject to try to understand matters The Transformed Self: The Psychology of Religious Conversion (Emotions, Personality, and Psychotherapy): Chana Ullman: 9780306431340: Amazon.com: Books This conversion greatly exacerbated our relationship problems and was a part of the reason for our divorce in the end. Fortunately no kids were involved.

That said, being familiar with the nature of conversion, whichever direction, has tempered how I speak with people, lest I be the cause of this potential turmoil. I ask myself, now that I know what deconversion/conversion does to a person and the people they love & know, the isolation, the ostracization etc. not to mention the potential for depression and existential crisis, am I willing to do this to someone? If so, why? It's a whole little process for me really with exceptions and loopholes, i.e. someone proselytizing, how "far" to go, etc. On the other end, I wholeheartedly agree with The Four Horsemen (New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), with Hitchens being my fav It's quite the tightrope and conflicting for me, but a necessary process imo, due to the implications in both directions, inaction vs. action.

Be well [MENTION=18694]Magic Qwan[/MENTION]

Thank you, and I agree that I have to decide when to speak and when not to. The people who mock me and push me down are so set in their ways, though, that there is little hope that saying something to them will help. I appreciate the links.

 

[Mole]

There may not be any difference between an atheist and a theist if we are to believe the philosophers who tell us that the defining feature of a person is becoming.

And if we recognise that we become what we worship, we can see that this applies to both atheist and theist.

If the theists become what they worship, then they know they are becoming like the deity they worship. A good example of this is, The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas à Kempis, written in the 15th century.

If atheists become what they worship, they have to ask themselves a question so far unknown to them: what do I worship. Do I worship family, tribe or nation, do I worship an ideology, do I worship a cult, do I worship power, do I worship money, do worship status, do I worship celebrity, do I worship a guru. Do I worship science. Do I worship sex. Do I worship drugs or alcohol. Do I worship myself?

So it is both vitally important for atheists and theists to recognise what they worship so they will know what they are becoming.

 

[Avocado]

There may not be any difference between an atheist and a theist if we are to believe the philosophers who tell us that the defining feature of a person is becoming.

And if we recognise that we become what we worship, we can see that this applies to both atheist and theist.

If the theists become what they worship, then they know they are becoming like the deity they worship. A good example of this is, The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas à Kempis, written in the 15th century.

If atheists become what they worship, they have to ask themselves a question so far unknown to them: what do I worship. Do I worship family, tribe or nation, do I worship an ideology, do I worship a cult, do I worship power, do I worship money, do worship status, do I worship celebrity, do I worship a guru. Do I worship science. Do I worship sex. Do I worship drugs or alcohol. Do I worship myself?

So it is both vitally important for atheists and theists to recognise what they worship so they will know what they are becoming.

I worship nothing at all, though I revere nature and its power. Even as mankind shapes it, we are subject to its will. If we raise global tempuratures, the ice caps will melt, and our farmlands will become desert. The great quest for knowledge, science, may someday find a solution.

 

[Mole]

I worship nothing at all, though I revere nature and its power. Even as mankind shapes it, we are subject to its will. If we raise global tempuratures, the ice caps will melt, and our farmlands will become desert. The great quest for knowledge, science, may someday find a solution.

Allow me say that perhaps you worship nature. You are a nature worshipper. And as we become what we worship, what are you becoming?

So what kind of natue do you worship?

Do you worship the power of nature? Do you worship a non-teleological nature, a nature without direction or consciousness? Or do you worship a conscious nature? Do you worshop Gaia? Do you worship a co-operative nature? Or do you worship a competitive nature? Do you worship a nature red in tooth and claw? Or do you worship a fecund nature? Do you worshop mamallian nature or marsupial nature? Do you worship the nature of the past or of the future?

The answer to these questions will tell you what you are becoming.

 

[Avocado]

Allow me say that perhaps you worship nature. You are a nature worshipper. And as we become what we worship, what are you becoming?

So what kind of natue do you worship?

Do you worship the power of nature? Do you worship a non-teleological nature, a nature without direction or consciousness? Or do you worship a conscious nature? Do you worshop Gaia? Do you worship a co-operative nature? Or do you worship a competitive nature? Do you worship a nature red in tooth and claw? Or do you worship a fecund nature? Do you worshop mamallian nature or marsupial nature? Do you worship the nature of the past or of the future?

The answer to these questions will tell you what you are becoming.

I see the ecology of this planet as fragile, and in order to continue to make technological progress, we must maintain a balance between the resources we take from nature, and what we allow nature to replenish. This may involve scaling back in the short term, but the great minds of the world may someday find a way to efficiently maintain technological growth.

Balance, Mole, Balance is key.