User Tag List

First 5678 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 75

  1. #61
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So there's this idea that an apostate is more atheist because they have the experience of rejecting an ideology. This is not self-evident. There needs to be some serious arguments to validate the idea that rejecting one ideology makes your freer than not having it. I think of Ayn Rand, who fiercely rejected the ideology of the Soviets, and in doing so moved into a totally blind acceptance of a different ideology. I grant that an apostate may have more experience with applying critical thought to their world view than a born atheist, but in the conversation I've had with apostates it seems like some part of them still clings to religion in a way that I've not found lifelong atheists to do. One area where is pretty consistently comes up is arguing that god does not matter, that is, even god's existence is not fundamentally important and would not satisfy the toughest questions. I find life long atheists usually agree with this, while apostates usually do not.
    This is a really good point.

    I went to Catholic school, and we had a joke that Catholic school creates more atheists and agnostics than any other institution.

    But the truth is, most previous Catholics still have some kind of attachment to the religion. Either we still say a prayer once in a while, or we still like sitting in an empty church once in a while, or we still like the smell of the overwhelming incense they used when we were children, or we find Protestants particularly annoying. I think old religions die hard. Belief sets connect with us at some emotional memory level that I think is extremely difficult to disconnect from.

  2. #62
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Default Ducklings and Catholics

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This is a really good point.

    I went to Catholic school, and we had a joke that Catholic school creates more atheists and agnostics than any other institution.

    But the truth is, most previous Catholics still have some kind of attachment to the religion. Either we still say a prayer once in a while, or we still like sitting in an empty church once in a while, or we still like the smell of the overwhelming incense they used when we were children, or we find Protestants particularly annoying. I think old religions die hard. Belief sets connect with us at some emotional memory level that I think is extremely difficult to disconnect from.
    Yes, just as ducklings imprint on their mother duck, so as catholicings we imprinted on the Church.

    As small children we have yet to develop our critical faculties and so believe whatever we are told. But it is far more powerful than belief, it is visceral, it affects all our senses and our orientation. And also it affects our very identity.

    And just as ducklings identify as ducks, we identify as catholics.

    But it remains true that the best antidote against religion is a catholic education.

  3. #63
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't remember if I posted in this thread once, but here are some thoughts...

    What's being proposed here is a particular interpretation of Christianity. Everyone seems to have a different one. And from what I've studied of early Christian scholarship (more than I ever wanted to) it seems this was true all the way back to the beginning. In other words, I'm not convinced that we can generalize that early Christians were freer from ideology because I do not see compelling evidence that this truly was the fundamental point and early Christians understood it.

    Regardless of what early Christians had in mind, that of course has little relevance to what modern Christians think. It has evolved to a great extent and in many different directions and I certainly don't believe that modern Christians have a belief that makes them more independent of ideology or without a Big Other.

    So there's this idea that an apostate is more atheist because they have the experience of rejecting an ideology. This is not self-evident. There needs to be some serious arguments to validate the idea that rejecting one ideology makes your freer than not having it. I think of Ayn Rand, who fiercely rejected the ideology of the Soviets, and in doing so moved into a totally blind acceptance of a different ideology. I grant that an apostate may have more experience with applying critical thought to their world view than a born atheist, but in the conversation I've had with apostates it seems like some part of them still clings to religion in a way that I've not found lifelong atheists to do. One area where is pretty consistently comes up is arguing that god does not matter, that is, even god's existence is not fundamentally important and would not satisfy the toughest questions. I find life long atheists usually agree with this, while apostates usually do not.
    Excellent post. I think there is a tendency for people who reject one ideology to maintain the internal framework of that ideology and then fill it with a new set of details. They maintain a dogmatic, often binary, internal theory that they impose on reality without having a good process for revising their understanding of the world based on encounters with new information. What you describe in the life-long atheist is someone who has neither the internal framework or contents of an ideology.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #64
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    There is beauty in hammering down truth, unless said truth is full of lies.

    @Redbone
    @Qlip
    and myself learned that the painful, scarring way.
    Ex-theist?
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I found this to be quite humorous. Thanks
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Ex-theist?
    Yes, I am an Ex-theist. I was once the exact kind of theist I deem so dangerous to society, too. Deconversion led to a huge personality change for me. I am now a super social liberal, abortion being the only thing I have doubts over. I see adoption as better if its an option. I am still pro-choice in practice, though.

    I digressed, though. Are you an Ex-theist?
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  7. #67
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Yes, I am an Ex-theist. I was once the exact kind of theist I deem so dangerous to society, too. Deconversion led to a huge personality change for me. I am now a super social liberal, abortion being the only thing I have doubts over. I see adoption as better if its an option. I am still pro-choice in practice, though.

    I digressed, though. Are you an Ex-theist?
    I never adopted theism growing up, just never bought into any of it, so I stayed atheist even before I knew that's what I was/am. I've personally known several ex-theists though and understand just how difficult and transformational/painful the process can be. I'm glad you seem to have fared well

    I'd say that while Richard Dawkins has a high profile as being quite the Atheist. My vote for hardest core, "king of the hill", take no prisoners atheist HAS to go towards the late Christopher Hitchens. While Mr. Dawkin's makes quite the front man, Hitch is in the trenches debating (formal and otherwise), showing up at discussions and just letting loose. Quite the verbal pugilist really, hence the coining of Hitchslap.


    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I never adopted theism growing up, just never bought into any of it, so I stayed atheist even before I knew that's what I was/am. I've personally known several ex-theists though and understand just how difficult and transformational/painful the process can be. I'm glad you seem to have fared well

    I'd say that while Richard Dawkins has a high profile as being quite the Atheist. My vote for hardest core, "king of the hill", take no prisoners atheist HAS to go towards the late Christopher Hitchens. While Mr. Dawkin's makes quite the front man, Hitch is in the trenches debating (formal and otherwise), showing up at discussions and just letting loose. Quite the verbal pugilist really, hence the coining of Hitchslap.


    He is one good debater.

    To your other point:
    I struggle with difficulties every day with my family when I don't put down the gays or other religious groups like they do, or even if I don't place our race at the center of the universe with everything I mention. They have issues when I experience wonder about something but don't acknowledge their deity. I've always been a loner, but I find being out in society more draining than ever, and I dislike leaving my room. I do this warm, smiley thing on the surface, but right beneath that, there is strong resentment when I have to deal with people. That said, I still want to help people from a distance, and wish people well. I just want them to leave me to my solitude when I'm done.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  9. #69
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    He is one good debater.

    To your other point:
    I struggle with difficulties every day with my family when I don't put down the gays or other religious groups like they do, or even if I don't place our race at the center of the universe with everything I mention. They have issues when I experience wonder about something but don't acknowledge their deity. I've always been a loner, but I find being out in society more draining than ever, and I dislike leaving my room. I do this warm, smiley thing on the surface, but right beneath that, there is strong resentment when I have to deal with people. That said, I still want to help people from a distance, and wish people well. I just want them to leave me to my solitude when I'm done.
    I understand these feelings you are conveying well. May I suggest checking out this website? Recovering From Religion It's really a good site with plenty of outlets and paths one can take to find support. I'd also suggest simply looking around the interwebs for atheist/secular friendly websites (I found Raising Atheist Children In A World Full Of Gods. - Atheist Parents: Parenting Without Belief to be useful, when I became a parent) that fall in line with your interests. There are usually subsections to these that can point you to useful resources.

    I once had a wife (wifey #1 , 7 years) who went from apatheist to Evangelical Christian and like most converts was quite zealous in the new identity that she was internalizing. I even bought a book on the subject to try to understand matters The Transformed Self: The Psychology of Religious Conversion (Emotions, Personality, and Psychotherapy): Chana Ullman: 9780306431340: Amazon.com: Books This conversion greatly exacerbated our relationship problems and was a part of the reason for our divorce in the end. Fortunately no kids were involved.

    That said, being familiar with the nature of conversion, whichever direction, has tempered how I speak with people, lest I be the cause of this potential turmoil. I ask myself, now that I know what deconversion/conversion does to a person and the people they love & know, the isolation, the ostracization etc. not to mention the potential for depression and existential crisis, am I willing to do this to someone? If so, why? It's a whole little process for me really with exceptions and loopholes, i.e. someone proselytizing, how "far" to go, etc. On the other end, I wholeheartedly agree with The Four Horsemen (New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), with Hitchens being my fav It's quite the tightrope and conflicting for me, but a necessary process imo, due to the implications in both directions, inaction vs. action.

    Be well @Magic Qwan
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I understand these feelings you are conveying well. May I suggest checking out this website? Recovering From Religion It's really a good site with plenty of outlets and paths one can take to find support. I'd also suggest simply looking around the interwebs for atheist/secular friendly websites (I found Raising Atheist Children In A World Full Of Gods. - Atheist Parents: Parenting Without Belief to be useful, when I became a parent) that fall in line with your interests. There are usually subsections to these that can point you to useful resources.

    I once had a wife (wifey #1 , 7 years) who went from apatheist to Evangelical Christian and like most converts was quite zealous in the new identity that she was internalizing. I even bought a book on the subject to try to understand matters The Transformed Self: The Psychology of Religious Conversion (Emotions, Personality, and Psychotherapy): Chana Ullman: 9780306431340: Amazon.com: Books This conversion greatly exacerbated our relationship problems and was a part of the reason for our divorce in the end. Fortunately no kids were involved.

    That said, being familiar with the nature of conversion, whichever direction, has tempered how I speak with people, lest I be the cause of this potential turmoil. I ask myself, now that I know what deconversion/conversion does to a person and the people they love & know, the isolation, the ostracization etc. not to mention the potential for depression and existential crisis, am I willing to do this to someone? If so, why? It's a whole little process for me really with exceptions and loopholes, i.e. someone proselytizing, how "far" to go, etc. On the other end, I wholeheartedly agree with The Four Horsemen (New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), with Hitchens being my fav It's quite the tightrope and conflicting for me, but a necessary process imo, due to the implications in both directions, inaction vs. action.

    Be well @Magic Qwan
    Sorry about your divorce.

    But I might add that as a general rule, and there are exceptions, the more educated are less likely to be religious.

Similar Threads

  1. Which Philosopher Do You Dislike the Most?
    By logan235711 in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 113
    Last Post: 08-02-2017, 11:14 PM
  2. The Amazing Atheist
    By lapinchocolat in forum Celebrity Personality Types
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-16-2015, 02:57 AM
  3. Atheists: The most disliked minority in America.
    By Arthur Schopenhauer in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 572
    Last Post: 06-03-2015, 05:01 PM
  4. The Amazing Atheist....
    By Stansmith in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-16-2014, 02:31 PM
  5. the amazin' atheist
    By Snuggletron in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-25-2010, 06:38 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO