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  1. #51
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDarkSide View Post
    I'm not sure if I follow. You're saying that human beings are outside of nature or unnatural, and therefore the things we do are unnatural. Did I get it?
    Noooooooot exatcly. : p

    Indeed, I beleive the human ego is outside of nature(though I prefer non-natural to unnatural as the latter has slightly pejorative connotations).

    As far as the things we do are concerned, its tricky. I was responding to jonnyyukon who said that our actions are worse than that of a bear, for instance. I think the reason for that is simply our technology. Our technology, like our arts, is something we create and make. Since our minds, which could be considered the mold of our actions, are non-natural, yet the "clay" in which we create technology and art(the physical world) is natural, you have somewhat of an in-between when it commes to our actions being natural or non-natural. The dead sea scrolls(for example) are a creation of man, they mean something to the mind of humans, and yet they are part of the physical world too.
    Last edited by Typh0n; 05-07-2014 at 02:22 PM. Reason: wording

  2. #52
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Not that I can tell. How can we be apart from the Universe when we're in it?
    We arent fully apart from it, our body is part of the universe.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I was responding to jonnyyukon who said that our actions are worse than that of a bear, for instance. I think the reason for that is simply our technology.
    I know what you mean, but it's more than that. It's our ability for abstract thought that makes us worse (and potentially better). We can project into the future and vividly imagine things that don't exist, or don't exist yet.

    When you imagine a new form of government called Democracy, it's swell. When you imagine that your race is somehow superior, it's not swell. Even worse, like you said, you can imagine and implement the technology and weapons and organization needed to fulfill those ideals.

    Here's Rust Cohle's take: " I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law."

    I agree with the first part to a point, but don't think that it's against natural law. There's mutations in nature and it's natural. Abnormal from the norm, perhaps.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  4. #54
    Problem? Grand Admiral Crunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Noooooooot exatcly. : p

    Indeed, I beleive the human ego is outside of nature(though I prefer non-natural to unnatural as the latter has slightly pejorative connotations).

    As far as the things we do are concerned, its tricky. I was responding to jonnyyukon who said that our actions are worse than that of a bear, for instance. I think the reason for that is simply our technology. Our technology, like our arts, is something we create and make. Since our minds, which could be considered the mold of our actions, are non-natural, yet the "clay" in which we create technology and art(the physical world) is natural, you have somewhat of an in-between when it commes to our actions being natural or non-natural. The dead sea scrolls(for example) are a creation of man, they mean something to the mind of humans, and yet they are part of the physical world too.
    This makes sense from a spiritual perspective, that God would've given us something divine that separates us from nature. But if we evolved from monkeys, then the ego would've been an evolutionary product of nature, making it natural and by extension, its actions on nature would be natural.

    But I understand what you're saying. Our physical being, what can seen and interact with the world is natural, but the parts unseen responsible for our actions, our ego is not.

  5. #55
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I know what you mean, but it's more than that. It's our ability for abstract thought that makes us worse (and potentially better). We can project into the future and vividly imagine things that don't exist, or don't exist yet.

    When you imagine a new form of government called Democracy, it's swell. When you imagine that your race is somehow superior, it's not swell. Even worse, like you said, you can imagine and implement the technology and weapons and organization needed to fulfill those ideals.

    Here's Rust Cohle's take: " I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law."

    I agree with the first part to a point, but don't think that it's against natural law. There's mutations in nature and it's natural. Abnormal from the norm, perhaps.
    Thats one definately cynical and slightly nihilistic way of looking at it, I think. Im not saying that what you're expressing wrong, and it reminds me of the film 2001: a space odyssey, where an entity from outer space(embodied by the monolith) appears to mankind at different times. Each time it does, mankind, "progresses", technologically, at least. This can be seen as our evolution, a darkly cynical take on human "progress". In the end, the main character encounters the monolith and is reincarnated(?) into an unborn baby. Kubrick said people were free to speculate on the meaning of 2001 though. On the video section of my profile, I added a passage from the film called "the dawn of man" under the heading "have YOU encountered the monolith". I think its kinda cool to speculate about the meaning of our evolution as humans, and while I dont share in your cynicism, I understand that there alot to be cynical about, depending on what you wanna focus your attention on, I guess.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Thats one definately cynical and slightly nihilistic way of looking at it, I think. Im not saying that what you're expressing wrong, and it reminds me of the film 2001: a space odyssey, where an entity from outer space(embodied by the monolith) appears to mankind at different times. Each time it does, mankind, "progresses", technologically, at least. This can be seen as our evolution, a darkly cynical take on human "progress". In the end, the main character encounters the monolith and is reincarnated(?) into an unborn baby. Kubrick said people were free to speculate on the meaning of 2001 though. On the video section of my profile, I added a passage from the film under the heading "have YOU encountered the monolith". I think its kinda cool to speculate about the meaning of our evolution as humans, and while I dont share in your cynicism, I understand that there alot to be cynical about, depending on what you wanna focus your attention on, I guess.
    I'm also in a cynical phase, haha. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Did you watch True Detective? I'm not NEARLY as nihilistic as Rust Cohle (his young daughter is killed, and wife divorces him over the tragedy), but his partner is a family man and has found meaning and peace in that (at the beginning of the season anyway). Even if I was in a happy, things are swell phase (which I do know) if I chose to think about it, I'd still see humanity as a whole as self-destructive, but would not really focus on it. And really, I don't dwell on it now. Just in this thread, I'm using cold logic.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  7. #57
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I'm also in a cynical phase, haha. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Did you watch True Detective? I'm not NEARLY as nihilistic as Rust Cohle (his young daughter is killed, and wife divorces him over the tragedy), but his partner is a family man and has found meaning and peace in that (at the beginning of the season anyway). Even if I was in a happy, things are swell phase (which I do know) if I chose to think about it, I'd still see humanity as a whole as self-destructive, but would not really focus on it. And really, I don't dwell on it now. Just in this thread, I'm using cold logic.
    No, I dont think it airs out here in Belgium. I could probably get it if I had a satellite dish with 300 channels(with 250 porn channels :p). TV is pretty limited here, we dont get most of the American shows(at least not at the time when they air in America).

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    We arent fully apart from it, our body is part of the universe.
    We are enormously successful animals because we create meaning, and because we are inter-subjective, we share meaning. This has made us the most powerful animal on the planet.

    And with great power comes great responsibity. But unfortunately we do not take reponsibility for our ability to create and share meaning, rather we think supernatual beings create meaning.

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