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  1. #41
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    No.

  2. #42
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    I really think there's something about our vision of what is natural or not which is rooted in Descartes philosophy and the idea that humans are "masters and possessors of nature", so that we're beings separated from nature and able to have an effect on it through our intelligence (with a divine origin). Therefore, artefacts produced by humans are viewed as artifical (vs natural).
    Yeah, you're probably right, thats where it seems to have its roots. My concept of the human mind is based on something similar to Descartes though, so I dont see it as being wrong.



    And as it was said, in a pantheist view, everything that could exist is natural (but, ok, this argument was also advanced by Sade lol).
    Actually what Sade said was that life is an enemy to nature, he encouraged the destruction of life through behaviors we today have labelled "sadistic"(because they especially implied sexual pain caused on others). He viewed life and nature as two opposite poles, and we can either encourage life by helping or benfitting others, which would hinder nature, or we could help nature by harming life.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    What if no human will exists? Does chance then exist?
    Chance is that which cannot be explained simpler.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geonat View Post
    Chance is that which cannot be explained simpler.
    And human will is just a matter of interpretation

    Edit: You cannot break the laws of physics (ok, an axiom, but pretty well-founded and economic) so:
    If you want free will you may just proclaim that "I *want to* follow the laws of physics".
    If you don't want free will then it is equally valid to say "I *have to* follow the laws of physics".
    Last edited by Geonat; 05-07-2014 at 03:37 PM. Reason: clarification

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Yeah, anything that exists is natural.

    Although people commonly use it to describe something not caused/created by humans. I think maybe we subconsciously separate ourselves from everything else (nature). But that's an illusion.
    ^^^^^^^^This.

    If it's within the UNIVERSE it's natural, much less, within Earth. Humans do like to think we are separate, we are not. If you look at us as a species objectively, we're more like bacteria or parasites, and Earth is our host (we weren't always like this, civilization has evolved (devolved?) us to this point). And bacteria is definitely natural.

    However, natural or unnatural can be used relatively speaking. Even outside of humans, animals behave in unnatural ways like the Tsavo Man-Eaters, a pair of lions in Africa in the late 1800s that killed humans for sport. Initial reports was like 135 people, but I think they boiled it down to 35ish, but still, freaking serial killer lions (actually kind of awesome).
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
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  6. #46
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post

    If it's within the UNIVERSE it's natural, much less, within Earth. Humans do like to think we are separate, we are not.
    Unfounded statement.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    If it's within the UNIVERSE it's natural, much less, within Earth. Humans do like to think we are separate, we are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Unfounded statement.
    Are you saying we are separate or above the rest of the world, or other animals?

    Entities of destruction and total annihilation, cold, and unfathomable exist in the Universe. Black holes. The Earth is in the same Universe, we are on the Earth. Is a black hole evil? No, but I guess you could call it that. Or that kind of energy. But that's really just a word, evil.

    Bears often eat their prey while they're still alive. Is that unnatural? Don't think so. Does it seem cruel and horrible to many of us? Yeah, probably.

    Humans aren't any different. In fact, we're much MUCH worse (if you really want something founded for that, the Holocaust).
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  8. #48
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Are you saying we are separate or above the rest of the world, or other animals?

    Entities of destruction and total annihilation, cold, and unfathomable exist in the Universe. Black holes. The Earth is in the same Universe, we are on the Earth. Is a black hole evil? No, but I guess you could call it that. Or that kind of energy. But that's really just a word, evil.

    Bears often eat their prey while they're still alive. Is that unnatural? Don't think so. Does it seem cruel and horrible to many of us? Yeah, probably.

    Humans aren't any different. In fact, we're much MUCH worse (if you really want something founded for that, the Holocaust).
    We are animals. Theres no denying that.

    But is that all we are? Or is there something more to humans(as well as higher mammals) that sets us apart from the universe? I wouldnt say that we are two different beings, one spiritual, the other physical, but we are a body-soul complex. You're talking about external behaviors only, which is only the external, not the internal, aspect of sentient life on Earth. Id say we're a mix of both.

    Ill expound on this; all phenomena of nature, we take in through our senses, are external, or natural. This means all perceived phenomena. Perhaps thats why so many people think that we are part of nature, too; we have an external body and our consciousness identifies wirth the extent of that body(it cant extend beyond the body); we see ourselves as phenomena.

    But its not so simple. In order for their to be order in the universe, all phenomena must be perceived understood, classified, interpreted, etc. Thats what we do when we use our minds. Our mind, at least our conscious ego is what connects phenomena to each other so they make sense in the known world we call nature. Since the mind is what orders phenomena, but cannot be perceived(it is doing the perceiving), it cannot be a phenomena, hence it stands apart from phenomena.

    I also believe theres more to the mind than simply the ego, theres also what Freud termed the id. The id is like a memory we just cant access. It can seen as both a Higher Self and lower Self, since it guides our actions despite the fact we aerent aware of its presence.

    Why are we so horrible(or have the potential to be)? Thats our potential. The holocaust is a realization of that negative potential. But also have the potential to be very beneficial and noble on a mass scale.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    We are animals. Theres no denying that.

    But is that all we are? Or is there something more to humans(as well as higher mammals) that sets us apart from the universe? I wouldnt say that we are two different beings, one spiritual, the other physical, but we are a body-soul complex. You're talking about external behaviors only, which is only the external, not the internal, aspect of sentient life on Earth. Id say we're a mix of both.

    Ill expound on this; all phenomena of nature, we take in through our senses, are external, or natural. This means all perceived phenomena. Perhaps thats why so many people think that we are part of nature, too; we have an external body and our consciousness identifies wirth the extent of that body(it cant extend beyond the body); we see ourselves as phenomena.

    But its not so simple. In order for their to be order in the universe, all phenomena must be perceived understood, classified, interpreted, etc. Thats what we do when we use our minds. Our mind, at least our conscious ego is what connects phenomena to each other so they make sense in the known world we call nature. Since the mind is what orders phenomena, but cannot be perceived(it is doing the perceiving), it cannot be a phenomena, hence it stands apart from phenomena.

    I also believe theres more to the mind than simply the ego, theres also what Freud termed the id. The id is like a memory we just cant access. It can seen as both a Higher Self and lower Self, since it guides our actions despite the fact we aerent aware of its presence.

    Why are we so horrible(or have the potential to be)? Thats our potential. The holocaust is a realization of that negative potential. But also have the potential to be very beneficial and noble on a mass scale.
    I'm not sure if I follow. You're saying that human beings are outside of nature or unnatural, and therefore the things we do are unnatural. Did I get it?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post

    But is that all we are? Or is there something more to humans(as well as higher mammals) that sets us apart from the universe?
    Not that I can tell. How can we be apart from the Universe when we're in it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I wouldnt say that we are two different beings, one spiritual, the other physical, but we are a body-soul complex.
    No disagreement there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You're talking about external behaviors only, which is only the external, not the internal, aspect of sentient life on Earth. Id say we're a mix of both.
    I may not have explicitly mentioned internal aspects, but I agree we're a mix. As above, So below. As within, so without.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    we have an external body and our consciousness identifies wirth the extent of that body(it cant extend beyond the body)
    Disagree. I've had plenty of out of body experiences. Done enough psychedelics to melt physical reality and dream most nights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Why are we so horrible(or have the potential to be)? Thats our potential. The holocaust is a realization of that negative potential. But also have the potential to be very beneficial and noble on a mass scale.
    Agree there too.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

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