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Zombies and Sin

Avalon

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If humans created a virus that could transform its victims into the mindless man eaters portrayed in popular fiction, would it be a sin to kill them. Would we violate God's commandment of "thou shall not kill"?

Technically they are still humans, they are sick and in need of help but then again this would also raise questions like what makes us human, is it because we possess consciousness, and opposable thumbs? Then what makes a zombie inhuman? Perhaps they are in a trance state or an empty vessel like a comatose victim? Would God toss us in the hellfire for "murdering" our fellow man? Surely we would need a justifiable reason to pull the trigger. So tell me what are your thoughts on this.
 

Qlip

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The Torah says, "If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first"
 

Totenkindly

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If humans created a virus that could transform its victims into the mindless man eaters portrayed in popular fiction, would it be a sin to kill them. Would we violate God's commandment of "thou shall not kill"?

Technically they are still humans, they are sick and in need of help but then again this would also raise questions like what makes us human, is it because we possess consciousness, and opposable thumbs? Then what makes a zombie inhuman? Perhaps they are in a trance state or an empty vessel like a comatose victim? Would God toss us in the hellfire for "murdering" our fellow man? Surely we would need a justifiable reason to pull the trigger. So tell me what are your thoughts on this.

In popular fiction (or at least "Walking Dead"), they're already dead. That's why they are called the walking dead. So I don't think it'd be a problem. You can't murder someone who isn't alive. [Reference Season 1, Episode 6, for a brain-scan of the undead and how only their reptilian stem is functioning, while the frontal lobes no longer function.]

Plus, if they're trying to kill you and your family, then I guess it comes down to "self-defense." Do you accept war as a regrettable but unavoidable aspect of life? If you aren't a pacifist who would allow bad people kill you and the people you love because you think violence is wrong, then I think the same logic would extend to defending yourself against zombies who are planning to rip you to shreds and eat you while you're still alive.

I think one's humanity comes into play in terms of "not enjoying it." if you are seeking things out to kill and enjoy it, that's not a great sign; but if you are defending yourself and putting the dead to rest, then sure.
 
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I think that it would be more of a sin to create this virus in the first place and reduce humans beings to these mindless creatures.
 

Avalon

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In popular fiction (or at least "Walking Dead"), they're already dead. That's why they are called the walking dead. So I don't think it'd be a problem. You can't murder someone who isn't alive.

Plus, if they're trying to kill you and your family, then I guess it comes down to "self-defense." Do you accept war as a regrettable but unavoidable aspect of life? If you aren't a pacifist who would allow bad people kill you and the people you love because you think violence is wrong, then I think the same logic would extend to defending yourself against zombies who are planning to rip you to shreds and eat you while you're still alive.

I think one's humanity comes into play in terms of "not enjoying it." if you are seeking things out to kill and enjoy it, that's not a great sign; but if you are defending yourself and putting the dead to rest, then sure.

If they existed I'd definitely defend myself but suppose they are not reanimated corpses but simply infected, perhaps I'd have trouble pulling the trigger then for I fear I might destroy a life that could be redeemed.
 

TreeBob

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I would tend to agree with Jenny. If anyone attacks you then it isn't a sin to defend yourself. I am fairly sure God agrees with me. Besides that God would think zombies were an abomination and would most likely want us to smite them down.

If they existed I'd definitely defend myself but suppose they are not reanimated corpses but simply infected, perhaps I'd have trouble pulling the trigger then for I fear I might destroy a life that could be redeemed.

If this were so then you and others like you would die early on.
 

Totenkindly

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If they existed I'd definitely defend myself but suppose they are not reanimated corpses but simply infected, perhaps I'd have trouble pulling the trigger then for I fear I might destroy a life that could be redeemed.

I'm not sure what the question is.

if they are still people, then save them if you can.
If they are reanimated corpses, then don't.

But i think you'd have to be practical about it, or you'd be like the person who keeps a family member on life support for twenty years after brain death, because they were unable to let go.

if I were a zombie without any sentience, I'd be fine with someone killing me.

If this were so then you and others like you would die early on.

That's definitely one way to thin out the population.
Nature does the work all on its own.
 

Avalon

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I'm not sure what the question is.

if they are still people, then save them if you can.
If they are reanimated corpses, then don't.

But i think you'd have to be practical about it, or you'd be like the person who keeps a family member on life support for twenty years after brain death, because they were unable to let go.

if I were a zombie without any sentience, I'd be fine with someone killing me.



That's definitely one way to thin out the population.
Nature does the work all on its own.

I'll use resident evil extinction as an example, for in the movie a scientist managed to rehabilitate a few zombies albeit their mindless and usually high aggression towards their trainers. I believe if the infected types, and not the reanimated corpse kind, still possess part of their humanity even though it's being inhibited by the infection. The closest thing to a zombie virus is rabies, its victims act very similar. I doubt if a man kill a person suffering from rabies because he was attacked, and he taught it was a zombie, surely he would be charged for manslaughter. I believe the same could be said about a infected zombie, it's still human and could be rehabilitated. But I cannot fathom the mind of God so I cannot say a human would be liable to receive damnation for killing an infected.
 

Totenkindly

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I'll use resident evil extinction as an example, for in the movie a scientist managed to rehabilitate a few zombies albeit their mindless and usually high aggression towards their trainers. I believe if the infected types, and not the reanimated corpse kind, still possess part of their humanity even though it's being inhibited by the infection. The closest thing to a zombie virus is rabies, its victims act very similar. I doubt if a man kill a person suffering from rabies because he was attacked, and he taught it was a zombie, surely he would be charged for manslaughter. I believe the same could be said about a infected zombie, it's still human and could be rehabilitated. But I cannot fathom the mind of God so I cannot say a human would be liable to receive damnation for killing an infected.

^^ IN that case, I would do what you felt you needed to do and live with the results. Can't God see your heart and know your motivations and be able to judge you accordingly? There is no blanket rule.

If your child is being threatened by a zombie, and you are not even SURE whether it's human, and you'd shoot a human who was threatening to dismember and kill your child and who you knew would NEVER stop until he was dead, then shoot the zombie as well.

If you are so unsure morally of it to the degree you would let a zombie kill and eat your child and then kill and eat you, then obviously your distrust of violence is stronger than your desire to survive and/or protect those you love, so you can let yourself die and be happy that God approves of your choice even if you're dead. Obviously God transcends death in that sense.

But there is no way we can arrive at a "certain" blanket answer as to whether it's "okay" to kill zombies. We just don't have that knowledge. You will live and die based on your convictions, not on some verifiable answer.
 

Avalon

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^^ IN that case, I would do what you felt you needed to do and live with the results. Can't God see your heart and know your motivations and be able to judge you accordingly? There is no blanket rule.

If your child is being threatened by a zombie, and you are not even SURE whether it's human, and you'd shoot a human who was threatening to dismember and kill your child and who you knew would NEVER stop until he was dead, then shoot the zombie as well.

If you are so unsure morally of it to the degree you would let a zombie kill and eat your child and then kill and eat you, then obviously your distrust of violence is stronger than your desire to survive and/or protect those you love, so you can let yourself die and be happy that God approves of your choice even if you're dead. Obviously God transcends death in that sense.

But there is no way we can arrive at a "certain" blanket answer as to whether it's "okay" to kill zombies. We just don't have that knowledge. You will live and die based on your convictions, not on some verifiable answer.

I guess your right Jennie, in that case I'll load my shotgun for I'm ready for world war z.
 

Totenkindly

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As an interesting similar question, a friend and I have discussed over the years how one might reconcile being a vampire if one was a Christian. What would be an ethical course of action for the vampire in question?

(And if you look at all the vampire mythology and symbolism, it's kind of "anti-Christ" -- it's all a backwards twist on Christian virtues, communion, the meaning of blood, etc.)
 

Avalon

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As an interesting similar question, a friend and I have discussed over the years how one might reconcile being a vampire if one was a Christian. What would be an ethical course of action for the vampire in question?

(And if you look at all the vampire mythology and symbolism, it's kind of "anti-Christ" -- it's all a backwards twist on Christian virtues, communion, the meaning of blood, etc.)

Very interesting and quite paradoxical too. When I think about a Christian vampire, the first thing comes to mind is the alkaline metals, they combust with water, so will vampires and churches, bibles, crucifixes, holy water and stakes. ^^
 

Totenkindly

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Very interesting and quite paradoxical too. When I think about a Christian vampire, the first thing comes to mind is the alkaline metals, they combust with water, so will vampires and churches, bibles, crucifixes, holy water and stakes. ^^

Well, we were thinking more about the moral dilemma of being turned into a vampire if you are a Christian.

What is the appropriate moral response?
To live, you must suck the blood of the living, preying on the innocent.
If you don't, you'll die.

Is suicide a morally justifiable alternative to an existence as a creature bound by instincts and rules that would drive it to consume others to promote its own longevity?
 

Avalon

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Well, we were thinking more about the moral dilemma of being turned into a vampire if you are a Christian.

What is the appropriate moral response?
To live, you must suck the blood of the living, preying on the innocent.
If you don't, you'll die.

Is suicide a morally justifiable alternative to an existence as a creature bound by instincts and rules that would drive it to consume others to promote its own longevity?

Perhaps the thirst for blood might override such a vampire's morality and it might feed. It's the same way when a person's existence is threatened, they become unstable and panicky and will do anything in that state of mind to promote their own longevity. But perhaps a dedicated Christian vampire will do the right thing and chose its own destruction, because of its inability to exist as a monster which endangers human.
 
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Ginkgo

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In most works of fiction, it seems like zombies lose their self-awareness. They operate purely on instinct. I don't think it would count as a "sin" to kill them, though it would feel a bit foul. If I lived in a zombie apocalypse, I would eventually become enthusiastic about the prospect of purging the world of undead so that humanity may once again claim its place in the world. However, if all human beings turned into zombies postmortem even when not bitten... the circumstances would be bleaker, and I could sympathize with the idea that zombies retain some of their humanity in the scenario. I'm not sure why. My best guess is that since they would be indomitable products of irreversible fate, more respect would be due.

The Torah says, "If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first"

That's fucking metal. \m/
 

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I agree with Ginkgo that even in cases of infection rather than more (mystical) reanimation, zombies appear to be living on pure instinct and do not posses consciousness. It would seem no small step to say a zombie might have the intelligence of, say, a dog, while being considerably more aggressive and dangerous if even only in potential. We would put rapid dogs down, and unfortunately (to put any emotive notions such a comparison might evoke aside) zombies would be very similar. There is no such thing as a human essence save for what is essential, and what is essential is merely what cannot be changed without a great change in object (paragidm shift, so to speak). Of course, zombies wouldnt need to merely not be human or to be considered as not human, they would also need to not be considered people; as we can imagine a universe in which another species had evolved or been created by god to have consciousness similar, but not identical, to our own. Consciousnesses is an essential trait we demand of people to be considered people, then. Therefore zombies lose human, people, rights.

Of course, all this goes out the window if we are to take a the strong view that any creature capable of suffering (for example) has extended rights to not be harmed. Care to defend the zombie hordes, [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] ?
 

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Nope. I'd consider it a merciful act of euthanasia to put them out of their suffering - provided we don't have a cure. And even then - the trauma of the disease might be too much to bear psychologically to consider the recovery successful.

I'm not against killing - I'm against chronic, meaningless suffering.

Death is a friend we all will meet in the end.
 

Octavarium

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I'm not going to try to answer this from a religious perspective, but I think it depends on a few things: are they capable of suffering, or are they completely unconscious? If they are conscious at all, do they have any quality of life? Is it a permanent state or is there any way to help them? If they're in constant suffering and there's no way to help them, killing them would probably be the most merciful/compassionate thing to do. But maybe what you're asking is, if they're going around killing/eating people, is it ok to kill them to save the lives of their potential victims? And I'd say again, if they're not conscious, if it's the only way to stop them and the effects of the virus can't be reversed, it's a definite yes for me. If they are conscious, it gets more complicated because that brings up the issue of whether they have any free will. If they're mindless, I assume you mean to imply they don't, and that would mean they can't be held responsible for their actions. Still, killing them might be the only way. But wouldn't it be a greater sin to create this virus in the first place?
 
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