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The Morality of Deathbed Conversions

Forever_Jung

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Short story: If an atheist is babbling incoherently on their deathbed, is it ethical to coerce a deathbed conversion out of them? Does it even "count"?

Long story:

 

five sounds

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My personal opinion: unlikely.

I feel like nobody can know what happened inside your aunt's heart and mind when she agreed to the conversion or whatever took place there. It seems like even if she 'agreed', her heart might not have been in it, which I don't think 'counts' at all. Ultimately, though, on matters of who ends up in heaven and who doesn't, whose acceptance of Christ is pure and whose isn't, I really don't spend much time trying to figure it out.

It's for that reason that funeral services that talk all about that person being with Jesus now make me uncomfortable. How do you know? I wish it were more just a celebration of life, than a proclamation of God's judgment of that person.
 

Jaguar

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Rewrote her life to seem as if she was always a devoted woman.

Fraudulent garbage.
 

Forever_Jung

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My personal opinion: unlikely.

I feel like nobody can know what happened inside your aunt's heart and mind when she agreed to the conversion or whatever took place there. It seems like even if she 'agreed', her heart might not have been in it, which I don't think 'counts' at all. Ultimately, though, on matters of who ends up in heaven and who doesn't, whose acceptance of Christ is pure and whose isn't, I really don't spend much time trying to figure it out.

It's for that reason that funeral services that talk all about that person being with Jesus now make me uncomfortable. How do you know? I wish it were more just a celebration of life, than a proclamation of God's judgment of that person.

Yeah, I agree.

I guess the idea that she's with Jesus is supposed to help people deal with the loss, but it just creeped me out that a person's narrative and essence, can just be appropriated and publicly altered by an institution, to suit its own agenda. You're not honouring her memory, you're editing her existence to make her death more palatable to people who can't handle it. She often spoke out about how the Catholic Church oppressed women, but now in the eyes of her family, she's just another good Catholic girl who knew her place.

I resent that some dude can just waltz in and lay claim to her internal landscape just because she's dying. And my family believes him, because he's a priest. I don't want any priests near me when I die, lest they steal my soul as I sleep.

Rewrote her life to seem as if she was always a devoted woman.

Fraudulent garbage.

AMEN.
 

JAVO

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Maybe Pascal's Wager seemed a little more rational right at the last minute of life? ;)
 
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WALMART

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She seems like the type of person that knows being strung up like a puppet in front of a mass of animated dolls is irrelevent to her current state.

I would try not to get bent out of shape, but yeah - I too would have a gnawing eternal curiosity of this convenience.
 

Cellmold

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out.

It's for that reason that funeral services that talk all about that person being with Jesus now make me uncomfortable. How do you know? I wish it were more just a celebration of life, than a proclamation of God's judgment of that person.

From the funerals I've been to in this country, while plenty have been held within churches, with vicars doing the sermons, they tend to be of an unobtrusive nature, religiously.

For example at my Aunt's fathers funeral, the priest there did not wax too much about god or jesus and instead preached a more "C'est la vie" attitude of praising the individual who the funeral concerned, which I appreciated more.

It was a similar situation at my grandmothers funeral, although that may have been more to do with her going to that church and her husband being a caretaker there, for the past 40 odd years. She knew a lot of the vicars personally.

I'm not sure if it is a recognition of waning faith that the Church of England has latched onto, or if in the individual cases I've cited I just happened to find pragmatic vicars who accept the notion of being more flexible with what people and they believe.
 

Comeback Girl

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Rewrote her life to seem as if she was always a devoted woman.

Fraudulent garbage.

Agree. That's why I consider donating my body to science when I die. No funeral or any other kind of service, so people can't commemorate me in a way that goes against my beliefs. (Plus they can use my body to educate future doctors and develop new methods to cure people, so on a long term it could save many lives.)
 

Forever_Jung

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does it matter? she's dead

She is, in fact, dead, but her familial narrative lives on, and it is a lie. That's all. I don't like that everyone in my family nods sagely and goes: she finally realized what an old fuddy duddy she was being and did the Right Thing. Praise Jesus. It creeps me out. I feel that the story that a person leaves behind is very important, and I don't like it being compromised. I know that it doesn't change what really happened (whatever that was), but it's still a shame.

I'll get over it, but I'm not about to dismiss my feelings just yet. I don't think I should just let people do that a dying person, because: aw shucks, they're just bags of decomposing flesh, anyway.

She seems like the type of person that knows being strung up like a puppet in front of a mass of animated dolls is irrelevent to her current state.

I would try not to get bent out of shape, but yeah - I too would have a gnawing eternal curiosity of this convenience.

You're right, of course. It'll just take me a little while to get to that point. :)
 

prplchknz

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She is, in fact, dead, but her familial narrative lives on, and it is a lie. That's all. I don't like that everyone in my family nods sagely and goes: she finally realized what an old fuddy duddy she was being and did the Right Thing. Praise Jesus. It creeps me out. I feel that the story that a person leaves behind is very important, and I don't like it being compromised. I know that it doesn't change what really happened (whatever that was), but it's still a shame.

I'll get over it, but I'm not about to dismiss my feelings just yet. I don't think I should just let people do that a dying person, because: aw shucks, they're just bags of decomposing flesh, anyway.
It's like when people die, there's this innate fear, if they've been doing the wrong thing in life that they're fucked. And so they try to make themeselves look good in the eyes of the family, and perhaps sometimes they do have a change of heart but not that close to death. And so no one wants to be remembered as an asshole, but some people need to be. I hate no matter what you did in life as long as you're not some like hitler or a murderer you become the best person in the world once you're dead. it's not right
 

Forever_Jung

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It's like when people die, there's this innate fear, if they've been doing the wrong thing in life that they're fucked. And so they try to make themeselves look good in the eyes of the family, and perhaps sometimes they do have a change of heart but not that close to death. And so no one wants to be remembered as an asshole, but some people need to be. I hate no matter what you did in life as long as you're not some like hitler or a murderer you become the best person in the world once you're dead. it's not right

Yeah, you get me. I totally agree.

For all of Orson Scott Card's faults, I liked this concept he put in Ender's Game of having Speakers for the Dead at funerals. These people tell true stories without hiding any faults or pretending any virtues, but do so in an empathetic, non-judgemental way.
 

prplchknz

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Yeah, you get me. I totally agree.

For all of Orson Scott Card's faults, I liked this concept he put in Ender's Game of having Speakers for the Dead at funerals. These people tell true stories without hiding any faults or pretending any virtues, but do so in an empathetic, non-judgemental way.
yes, yes, yes.never read the ender's game I have it. I should do that.
 

Opal

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My gut response is anger. At the same time, though, it might have offered her peace of mind in her last moments, and the priest/her daughter probably had the best intentions. I would worry more about its influence on other possible believers; if a devout atheist changed her mind on the brink of death, she must have seen something they don't, right?
 

prplchknz

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My gut response is anger. At the same time, though, it might have offered her peace of mind in her last moments, and the priest/her daughter probably had the best intentions. I would worry more about its influence on other possible believers; if a devout atheist changed her mind on the brink of death, she must have seen something they don't, right?

most people aren't devout atheist, put them in a dangerous situation that brings them close to death 9 out of 10 times they'll pray and ask god to save them. I'm not saying everyone's like this. but most of the people I've met that have been in such a situation has said fox hole prayers. I know this wasn't your point, I just felt like it
 

Opal

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most people aren't devout atheist, put them in a dangerous situation that brings them close to death 9 out of 10 times they'll pray and ask god to save them. I'm not saying everyone's like this. but most of the people I've met that have been in such a situation has said fox hole prayers. I know this wasn't your point, I just felt like it

It's reasonable, the drive for security is universal. Obviously I can't predict this, but I highly doubt I will do anything other than stare off in my last moments, and though it wouldn't affect me, being dead, the thought of my belief system being posthumously twisted is a little enraging.
 
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