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  1. #41
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    when I was a christian, I figured I could do whatever I wanted and confess my sins on my death bed and still go to heaven
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #42
    LadyLazarus
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    In my opinion; no.

    They where more than likely converting out of desperation and whatnot.
    Although, that is not to say that being at death's door may not be a legitimate reason for repentance, maybe on their death bed said person was finally in a position where they where able to reflect upon their lives and decide they wanted to adopt a religion before they died.

    However, being that we are speaking of coercing someone into a deathbed conversion, I would say it doesn't count, as with much else, if someone had to force you to do it; it is highly likely you wouldn't have done it of your own will, in religions like Christianity, which requires the person converting into a Christian to accept God and therefore the religion of Christianity as a whole, of their own will, this would not "fly", so to speak.

  3. #43
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Short story: If an atheist is babbling incoherently on their deathbed, is it ethical to coerce a deathbed conversion out of them? Does it even "count"?

    Long story:

    Recently my aunt died, but it was no shock to the family, since she had been dying for quite some time (plus she was pretty old at 73). She was a sharp-tongued, pragmatic, sensible ESTJ. She was very old school and factual (I'm tablesetting, not eulogizing, don't worry). She also had no belief in God and, more specifically, felt that Christianity was "sentimental nonsense", despite the fact that her parents and her 19 siblings (I have impoverished, Catholic-Acadian roots, so 20 kids isn't SO unusual.) were all Christians.

    When she first checked into the hospital, towards the end, a priest came by and she said: No, no, no, get outta here you vulture! You're not gonna get me! She then proceeded to tell us she didn't want to have her funeral in a church, she just wanted people to toast her and have a nice meal. Then you can just dump me in the ground, and be done with it, she added, in her gruff tone. Hearing this, we thought that the matter was settled. However, over time, a lack of oxygen made her very disoriented and weak. She started mixing up people's faces, and speaking gibberish. She started calling me by my father's name, and referring to incidents that happened 40 years ago as if they were happening now. Anyway, at the very end, on her literal deathbed, her daughter brought a priest in and according to her, conveniently converted my aunt moments before she died. She claims that her mother was a bit foggy, but the "priest could tell" she was lucid when she agreed to change all of her last wishes and accept Jesus Christ as her Lord and saviour.

    So at her funeral she had a full mass, and the priest went on this big spiel about Jesus, and how if you don't think he's the son of God, then you're calling Jesus one of the worst liars ever, blah, blah, blah, and also rewrote my aunt's life to make it seem like she was always a devoted woman. Most people in my family don't care, because they're all about Jesus, but I was furious. I'm not an atheist per se, but it seemed unconscionable to rewrite someone's spiritual history (or lack thereof) and take advantage of them at a weakened state, just to claim them as a believer.

    I am a bit skeptical she really converted on her deathbed, and even if she did, how can a deathbed conversion count if she was out of her mind for the two weeks leading up to it? My aunt had the upbringing and every opportunity to become Christian for 73 years, and she chose not to.
    You never know how Jesus is going to visit someone while they are dying. I've often heard, when people are dying, they see angels and relative(s) that passed; some have seen Jesus. Like those people, your aunt might have had one foot in this world and one foot in the spiritual world. Even though to you it seemed she was "out of her mind," she's still a spiritual being, and God might have revealed himself to her in a supernatural way; enough to change her heart and an answer prayers.

    It may be last minute, but it still counts.

    God's peace to you and your family. Trust God.

    "And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)

  4. #44
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Just like Pascal himself, huh? He was of such poor character. *sarcasm*
    Pascal's Wager is sign of moral weakness.

    Pascal's Wager appeals to clever people who believe they can avoid making a moral choice.

    And using cleverness to avoid a moral choice is moral weakness and a sign of a poor character.

    Such cleverness is common among the followers of mbti and Carl Jung.

    And they gather together to prove to one another that they don't have impoverished characters.

  5. #45
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Pascal's Wager is sign of moral weakness.
    I don't agree. It's pragmatic, which itself is morally neutral. Why do you think that?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I don't agree. It's pragmatic, which itself is morally neutral. Why do you think that?
    Pascal's Wager is moral cowadice.

    And we know that moral courage is rare.

    So moral cowards hide their cowardice behind pragmatism.

  7. #47
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Pascal's Wager is moral cowadice.
    Why?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Why?
    Moral courage requires making moral choices and sticking to them in the face of opposition.

  9. #49
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Moral courage requires making moral choices and sticking to them in the face of opposition.
    So you're assuming that a person cannot have morality without religion then?

    Couldn't a spiritual decision be made which is independent from morality?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    So you're assuming that a person cannot have morality without religion then?

    Couldn't a spiritual decision be made which is independent from morality?
    No and no.

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