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  1. #21
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    It's reasonable, the drive for security is universal. Obviously I can't predict this, but I highly doubt I will do anything other than stare off in my last moments, and though it wouldn't affect me, being dead, the thought of my belief system being posthumously twisted is a little enraging.
    I respect you for saying what you expect to happen, but realizing that it's not 100% guaranteed, as you can't know for sure until you're in that situation. It drives me nuts when people are sure of how they'll react in an unfamilar situation, you can't know that.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #22
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    most people aren't devout atheist, put them in a dangerous situation that brings them close to death 9 out of 10 times they'll pray and ask god to save them. I'm not saying everyone's like this. but most of the people I've met that have been in such a situation has said fox hole prayers. I know this wasn't your point, I just felt like it
    That reminds me of a Regina Spektor song:

    No one laughs at God in a hospital,
    No one laughs at God in a war.
    No one's laughing at God,
    When they're starving or freezing,
    Or so very poor.

    Atheism isn't like Religion, you don't feel the need to cling to it, because there's nothing to cling to. It's an absence of belief. So I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to lapse into belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    My gut response is anger. At the same time, though, it might have offered her peace of mind in her last moments, and the priest/her daughter probably had the best intentions. I would worry more about its influence on other possible believers; if a devout atheist changed her mind on the brink of death, she must have seen something they don't, right?

    You may be right. I'm not super sceptical that my aunt might have gave in to the prodding of a priest. I'm not even sceptical that God exists. I am sceptical of stuffy old priests.

    She had been beaten down by cancer, she was mentally disoriented, and she was facing her own annihilation. Who knows what she felt in those moments (God, perhaps)? I just don't think that counts as a real conversion, and as real faith. And I think it's disingenuous to extrapolate from this deathbed conversion to presume she had always secretly loved Jesus. She had a lot of problems with the Church, and deathbed panic shouldn't whitewash those concerns.

  3. #23
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post


    You may be right. I'm not super sceptical that my aunt might have gave in to the prodding of a priest. I'm not even sceptical that God exists. I am sceptical of stuffy old priests.

    She had been beaten down by cancer, she was mentally disoriented, and she was facing her own annihilation. Who knows what she felt in those moments (God, perhaps)? I just don't think that counts as a real conversion, and as real faith. And I think it's disingenuous to extrapolate from this deathbed conversion to presume she had always secretly loved Jesus. She had a lot of problems with the Church, and deathbed panic shouldn't whitewash those concerns.
    of course she hadn't secretly loved Jesus, that would be absurd. I'm talking about people who are of sound mind
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #24
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    of course she hadn't secretly loved Jesus, that would be absurd. I'm talking about people who are of sound mind
    Yeah sorry, I was still rearranging my final post before you quoted it. Should have previewed it first. I was actually responding to someone else.

  5. #25
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Yeah sorry, I was still rearranging my final post before you quoted it. Should have previewed it first. I was actually responding to someone else.
    it's ok
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Maybe Pascal's Wager seemed a little more rational right at the last minute of life?
    Yeah, like if their idea of God existed, he'd be such a naive intellectual lightweight that he'd say, "Oh, well, they blew me off their whole lives, and finally just got chickenshit right before they were about to die and just wanted to save their own skin from hell rather than actually giving a darn about me and what I value or being aligned with what I wanted to accomplish in the universe -- but yes, I'll let them game the system and be rewarded with eternal life with me."

    Srsly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    She had been beaten down by cancer, she was mentally disoriented, and she was facing her own annihilation. Who knows what she felt in those moments (God, perhaps)? I just don't think that counts as a real conversion, and as real faith. And I think it's disingenuous to extrapolate from this deathbed conversion to presume she had always secretly loved Jesus. She had a lot of problems with the Church, and deathbed panic shouldn't whitewash those concerns.
    Who really knows, but yes.

    I mean, in the end, if that is the God who exists, then only God would know and could make that determination. But I think it's kind of a moot point here for people to go for feel-good moments and lay claim to nebulous deathbed conversions so they don't have to imagine their loved one burning in hell for eternity or so that the church can put another notch on its belt in terms of people saved.

    I also find it a complete violation of every person's autonomy / right to decide who they are and what they believe, to take advantage of their fears and insecurities in this kind of way. People should be respected enough to let stand how they lived their lives, rather than having people try to rewrite their lives for them at the very end or even after the fact; you might as well eradicate them from existence if you're going to erase who they were and how they lived.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, like if their idea of God existed, he'd be such a naive intellectual lightweight that he'd say, "Oh, well, they blew me off their whole lives, and finally just got chickenshit right before they were about to die and just wanted to save their own skin from hell rather than actually giving a darn about me and what I value or being aligned with what I wanted to accomplish in the universe -- but yes, I'll let them game the system and be rewarded with eternal life with me."

    Srsly?


    Yeah I know. I've never been thrilled by his wager, but I think he meant it more as a way to say: it couldn't hurt to try to get to know God, and practice Christian values. If you're wrong, you're only missing out on material/finite things. If you live an UnChristian life and he does exist, you lose FOREVER.

    Still, viewing faith so pragmatically, as a spiritual expedience, seems to defeat the entire purpose of God.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Short story: If an atheist is babbling incoherently on their deathbed, is it ethical to coerce a deathbed conversion out of them? Does it even "count"?

    Long story:

    Great questions. I'm so tired. I'll be back.

  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Maybe Pascal's Wager seemed a little more rational right at the last minute of life?
    Taking Pascal's Wager is a sign of a poor character.

  10. #30
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, like if their idea of God existed, he'd be such a naive intellectual lightweight that he'd say, "Oh, well, they blew me off their whole lives, and finally just got chickenshit right before they were about to die and just wanted to save their own skin from hell rather than actually giving a darn about me and what I value or being aligned with what I wanted to accomplish in the universe -- but yes, I'll let them game the system and be rewarded with eternal life with me."

    Srsly?
    Ha ha. This isn't really an issue though if God is defined as "a being beyond that which can be conceived." Our psychological anthropomorphisms then become irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Taking Pascal's Wager is a sign of a poor character.
    Just like Pascal himself, huh? He was of such poor character. *sarcasm*

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