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  1. #41
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Are you really prepared to allow a scapegoat to take away the responsibility for your sins?

    Anyway scapegoating is an age-old superstition. Do you really believe scapegoating actually works?
    If you're scared of Hell, then buying 'fire insurance' sounds like a good idea to me.

    I'm merely stating what Christian doctrine *is*.

    As I said earlier, the very axioms used by the atheist and Christian; and the differing weight or importance
    on various facets of human experience, lead to different conclusions.

    ECREE and all that; but the definition of "extraordinary" differs from person to person; as do the criteria
    for "reasonableness."

    It's an impasse.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #42
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    You'd be snobbish too if you were right all the time and surrounded by fools. I'm not winning hearts and minds, nor am I trying to.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    You'd be snobbish too if you were right all the time and surrounded by fools. I'm not winning hearts and minds, nor am I trying to.
    Is it tough to roll out of bed in the morning and already be better than the millions who disagree?

  4. #44
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    I am an Atheist myself, but I despise this current crop of "New Atheists" who are arrogant assholes and/or (like Sam Harris and the Late Chris Hitchens) Islamophobic Neo-Con apologists. Many of them perpetuate outdated and historically false ideas about early Christianity, the "fall of Rome", and the so-called "Dark Ages" derived from Enlightenment-era polemics. They are also part of the trend towards STEM-worship and hating on the Liberal Arts and Humanities.
    Autistic INFP


  5. #45
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I have grown very weary of a certain kind of atheist. Their arrogance reminds me of when I was 13, and I was in my "logical" phase, where I worshipped math, thought I was smarter than everyone, and never shut up about the foolishness of those who believe in God.

    At any rate, it seems very probable that Christian beliefs are wrong in a literal way, but I don't think that makes them foolish. Most Christians, seem pretty smart and normal to me. And for every weird religious creep thumping his bible, there's a neckbeard on Reddit pummelling people with Sam Harris quotes.

  6. #46
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    IMO it doesn't really matter in this sort of discussion what the beliefs in question are, just how those involved decide to treat other people. Some atheists are snobs and some theists are snobs. It doesn't make atheism itself inherently snobby, nor does it make theism inherently unintellectual. Being compassionate, patient, genuine, tolerant, and respectful can (and certainly seem to) be honed completely independent of belief structure.

    As for the course of history, while we can probably agree that many things have changed for the better in terms of how we perceive quality of living, most things have just changed. Belief is really no different. Without being able to know the truth to an extent that we can all clearly and openly reach a unanimous agreement, making the call that we're moving towards atheism as a more enlightened state of being is just an inductive guess. Personally I'm more inclined to see movement towards philosophical communities that are open to many systems of belief operating peacefully and even synergistically in tandem with one another as real progress, but that's just my personal opinion.
    Agreed.

    I am glad that the atheistic community is coming out more and showing our religious peers that we are capable of being happy, healthy, morally well rounded individuals that do not in fact hate America.

    But I think sometimes we go too far and we're breeding the very sort of resentment that they fostered onto us. It's not productive, and I think it would be best for both sides to realize that we are quite capable of living together easily and happily.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  7. #47
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    But I think sometimes we go too far and we're breeding the very sort of resentment that they fostered onto us. It's not productive, and I think it would be best for both sides to realize that we are quite capable of living together easily and happily.
    Yes, exactly.

    Just as it bothers me when Christians don't practice what they preach, it bothers me when atheists are hypocrites: complaining about Christian evangelism and closed-mindedness when they evangelize and are closed-minded in much the same way (but with snobbery added). I grew up around primarily evangelical atheists, and even now will find myself saying things like this (a familiar-sounding reversal): "I'm fine with atheists as long as they don't try to push their atheism onto me." I'm a Christian who respects atheists, and I know atheists who respect Christians. But the hypocrites in both groups are harmful to themselves, each other, and the entire dialogue.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  8. #48
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I recall Daniel Dennett recounting how he attempted to submits drafts of his writing to the review of some of his Christian acquaintances to help make his work less offensive, and found himself repeatedly redrafting and making no headway. He came to the conclusion that it was not feasible to express his perspective in a way that Christians would not consider offensive, so it's not a good investment of effort to try not to be. That's how I tend to feel.

    Religion is a predominant and privileged belief, and it is still normal even in places as advanced as the USA to exclude religion or things given a religious label from rigorous analysis that other things are subject to. I don't like accepting that this is how the world has to continue to be, and I see not saying anything against it as effectively accepting it, and as far as I can tell there isn't a way to speak against it that is not allegedly conceited and offensive. So I do not cry crocodile tears for the religious. I'm not sorry.
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  9. #49
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    as far as I can tell there isn't a way to speak against it that is not allegedly conceited and offensive.
    There's always a choice between being respectful and being disrespectful -- between being civil/courteous and being rude. Usually it's a matter of deciding whether or not you're going to let your anger and resentment get the better of you.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  10. #50
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We have traditional religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, created during the Bronze Age meeting the world of Natural Selection, billions of galaxies, and the world of atoms.

    And the Bronze Age naturally suffers by comparison with Natural Selection, Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

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