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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The majority of people have often been incorrect. The correct belief always has to start as a minority. That minority has a tendency to begin amongst some kind of intellectual elite for what I presume to be obvious reasons.

    Historically the general society has latently followed along with the intellectual one. What's more, the number of people who are religious is declining slowly but surely, and in terms of conversion religious to atheist are more typical than atheist to religious.

    That's that.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #12
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And if it is wrong to label people as Aryan, Negro, Asian, Slav, Aboriginal, and Jew, it is wrong to function in society.

    These labels are simply tools we use in order to live.

    So giving an orderly terminology to these distinctions is neither moral nor immoral, simply amoral.
    This is a different objection from your first objection. Your original remarks nowhere implied this.

    Now you seem to be saying not that MBTI is wrong because it makes distinctions as such, but because these distinctions can be equated with a mixture of racial and ethnic distinctions, some of which have Nazi connotations, and all of which are generally considered today to not have an objective basis in reality, except to the extent that we give them a basis by allowing our actions to be directed by them.

    So, presumably you believe that MBTI has no significant basis in reality, and for this reason it is neither useful nor moral?

    I don't think you have good reasons for believing this. Unlike racial distinctions, which involve putting onto another person a label we have constructed based on arbitrary physical features, typology distinctions are supposed to be based on something that has some sort of impact on behavior. No one agrees on whether it is directly based on behavior, or merely influences perceptions leading to influences on behavior, but either way, I think your analogy is flawed.

    Distinctions based on behavior are neither moral nor immoral; they are amoral and we need them to function in society. I would classify MBTI as one of these; take it or leave it based on whether you find it useful. Distinctions based on race have no basis in behavior and are therefore not needed to function in society except to the extent that we must recognize our society believes in them (and thus acts on them, leading to behavioral changes due to illusory racial differences).

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    So, presumably you believe that MBTI has no significant basis in reality, and for this reason it is neither useful nor moral?
    In seventy-five years there has not been one random double blind experiment done on mbti.

    If mbti were fair dinkum there would be thousands.

    So what do you take me for?

  4. #14
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Where's @grey_beard?
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  5. #15
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Where's @grey_beard?
    You rang?
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    IMO it doesn't really matter in this sort of discussion what the beliefs in question are, just how those involved decide to treat other people. Some atheists are snobs and some theists are snobs. It doesn't make atheism itself inherently snobby, nor does it make theism inherently unintellectual. Being compassionate, patient, genuine, tolerant, and respectful can (and certainly seem to) be honed completely independent of belief structure.

    As for the course of history, while we can probably agree that many things have changed for the better in terms of how we perceive quality of living, most things have just changed. Belief is really no different. Without being able to know the truth to an extent that we can all clearly and openly reach a unanimous agreement, making the call that we're moving towards atheism as a more enlightened state of being is just an inductive guess. Personally I'm more inclined to see movement towards philosophical communities that are open to many systems of belief operating peacefully and even synergistically in tandem with one another as real progress, but that's just my personal opinion.

  7. #17
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    In seventy-five years there has not been one random double blind experiment done on mbti.

    If mbti were fair dinkum there would be thousands.

    So what do you take me for?
    A troll. There are many reasons you don't have the experiments.

    Qualitative measures without closely-mapped physical attributes.
    Imprecise definitions of the qualitative measures.

    Regulations on Human Subjects Testing.

    And on and on.

    So the standard techniques of science are too fine-grained to get a handle on MBTI.
    Big deal.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  8. #18
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    A troll. There are many reasons you don't have the experiments.

    Qualitative measures without closely-mapped physical attributes.
    Imprecise definitions of the qualitative measures.

    Regulations on Human Subjects Testing.

    And on and on.

    So the standard techniques of science are too fine-grained to get a handle on MBTI.
    Big deal.
    And we can say the same for any religious belief or superstition.

  9. #19
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And we can say the same for any religious belief or superstition.
    Facile quip but untrue.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  10. #20
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Facile quip but untrue.
    C'mon, for instance the discovery of the Trinity would be the greatest and most important discovery of humanity, but so far there is no evidence whatsoever. Same with mbti.

    And let me tell you that it is only animals that live on the surface that are facile. Mole, along with Badger, dig deep and live in the depths, unfortunately so do rabbits, weasels and stoats.

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