The GOD Thread~

[prplchknz]

That is very strange. It works perfectly for me.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay/?page=1

now it does, perhaps it had to do with i was on my phone the first time i clicked the link

 

[Magic Poriferan]

As far as I can tell homosexuality and heterosexuality are just recently invented social constructs with little scientific basis. The only reason why people are even bothering to prove this stuff scientifically is because the LGBT movement currently finds such a divide in sexuality to be politically helpful towards their aims.

Wait, wait... what?

What do you mean by recent?

In so far as they are constructed ideas, and regardless of where they stand now, can we agree that the emphasis on them was first created by heterosexuals discriminating against homosexuals?

Yes, but I am purporting that in the case of victims, God allows more grace through Jesus, for forgiving those sins. Especially in the case of children who might not know better or be able to prevent it.

But yeah, it does mean that forgiveness needs to happen. But how is that any different than all of us being imperfect and needing forgiveness for merely existing?

I gave you augustine. He discusses it in the City of God. I pretty much think he settles it, but it was only a tangential issue as the main problem was that pagan Romans were killing themselves over the dishonor of rape and he was trying to stop it. I'm not aware of any serious argument against Augustine's view since then.

I have no idea where you're views come from.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're somehow stuck on the idea that causing sin somehow makes the sin of rape worse. But, you're really not thinking this through.

If it is sin on the victim's part then that comes with certain obligations like confession and seeking forgiveness from the ones you sin against.

This means that if it is sin then the victim has to seek forgiveness from the attacker.

That's just a deplorably heinous outcome.

As an atheist, I'd like to know which of the two of you I should be listening to.

 

[prplchknz]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] I really enjoyed that article, and see it's from 2005, so I'm gonna see how much further they've come research wise. But it was a cool article, I didn't find myself bored once. Though that's something that does interest me.

 

[Beorn]

Wait, wait... what?

What do you mean by recent?

150 years ago. As a conservative I probably measure time in a substantially different way than you do.

In so far as they are constructed ideas, and regardless of where they stand now, can we agree that the emphasis on them was first created by heterosexuals discriminating against homosexuals?

Sure.

As an atheist, I'd like to know which of the two of you I should be listening to.

I don't care.

 

[highlander]

If your standard for exegesis and means of understanding the Bible is just by determining what seems silly to you and what doesn't then I'm not there's much point in arguing with you, but I'll give it a try.

Are you part of the nation of Israel???

If not then those laws don't apply to you. It's as simple as that.

They apply to you if you are a Jewish-Christian, but not if you are a Pagan-Christian. You are either one or the other. God the Father came before Christ. Unless you ignore the OT and the history of the faith of Christianity.

So it strikes me then that this could be a matter of interpretation - similar to the Catholic Church's position on birth control. A lot of people just ignore Leviticus altogether because they don't think it's particularly relevant. A lot of modern Christians tend to ignore most of what's in the Old Testament actually. I'm not saying that is right but it is factual. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Old Testament. There are however things that I take with a grain of salt.

With respect to the New Testament, there are a few references to homosexuality:

1. Romans 1:26-27, "For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error."

This text from Paul's Letter to the Romans is the most direct reference in the Bible to homosexuality. The long and short of it is that Paul is attempting to convince the Jews in Rome to convert to Christianity. Paul was a Jew who was steeped in the Jewish law and he was attempting to persuade. He refers to several sections in the Old Testament because that is what his audience understands and believes in. It is what they lived by. Are all of Paul's words the words of God? Someone decided that. That was a decision made by a person or at least a group of people.

There are a few other verses in the New Testament. Each of these is the King James translation.

Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

Timothy 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

It is clearly understandable how many Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong. After all, "it's in the Bible." It seems to me however that all the references tie back to the Old Testament. That's the part of the Bible where they stone people, God tells Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice and the world was created in 7 days.

 

[Mole]

Critical Thinking

Perhaps the greates contribution Western Civilization has made is critical thinking.

And we see the evidence, on this thread, in the critical thinking about Christianity.

And we should remember we stand in a tradition of critical thinking, 2,500 years old, going back to Socrates, the classical Greek philosopher.

And we stand in a tradition of critical thinking about Christianity going back about 200 years.

But what we find absent is critical thinking about Islam.

We refrain from critical thinking about Islam to be politically correct.

And we avoid critical thinking about Islam to avoid threats of violence and actual acts of violence.

However individual muslims are rational human beings and so can be engaged on the level of critical thinking.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

No. It doesn't matter whether you're jew or gentile. The temple was destroyed in the first century and so was the nation of Israel and all the laws that went with it.

God's Word and everlasting covenants live on whether a temple was destroyed or not. They live on in the Bible, and should be living on in Christianity.

I think it's so sad that most Christians are ignorant and apathetic when it comes to our Judean roots.

 

[Coriolis]

If we only spent as much time focused on LOVE this world would be such a better place.

Yes. For that reason, I worry less about whom people choose to love, and hope instead that they do indeed love.

They apply to you if you are a Jewish-Christian, but not if you are a Pagan-Christian. You are either one or the other. God the Father came before Christ. Unless you ignore the OT and the history of the faith of Christianity.

So as someone who is not a Christian at all, they don't apply to me. I suppose that's fair enough. Part of choosing to be a Christian, then, is choosing to abide by these rules. At least it is voluntary now.

It was before. Male (and female) prostitutes existed in the Gentile culture long before Jesus. They were especially active at the 'high places' where rituals were performed to Baal and Asherah.

Characterizing the highlighted groups as "prostitutes" is at best oversimplification, and at worst defamation.

 

[á´…eparted]

Stacey Dooley did a show on gay conversion therapy, and in it she interviewed a psychiatrist/psychologist who had this theory. It resonated with what I know to be true as well.

It's not true though. Conversion therapy does not work, and has been discredited. It's regarded to be harmful.

 

[Nicodemus]

It's not true though. Conversion therapy does not work, and has been discredited. It's regarded to be harmful.

You should know that her actual and only reason for believing this bullshit is this: "It resonated with what I know to be true as well."

She is utterly unfazed by evidence other than her own random interpretations, at least some of which clearly point to willful ignorance.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

So as someone who is not a Christian at all, they don't apply to me. I suppose that's fair enough. Part of choosing to be a Christian, then, is choosing to abide by these rules. At least it is voluntary now.


Characterizing the highlighted groups as "prostitutes" is at best oversimplification, and at worst defamation.

I was already referring to Believers. The rest is subjugate to that premise.

Baal and Asherah were false gods, who were worshipped at the high places, and were honored by fornicating with prostitutes.

It's not true though. Conversion therapy does not work, and has been discredited. It's regarded to be harmful.

I did not say I agree with conversion therapy or not. I have not studied it much. I think any therapy without God is pointless, as He is the source Healer.

Also, therapy is general doesn't seem to be very specific or sensitive, or to be very successful overall. I think, again, that this is because God is usually lacking in typical therapy.

It would take a very very sensitive and specific type of therapy with a sensitive therapist who is a Child of God to help someone realize his or her true romantic potential once a lifetime of childhood hurts had plagued them. I don't think a gay conversion retreat or a self-righteous preacher would effect much good or change over a short period of time. Also, a necessary part of healing is to WANT to change. Fighting the flesh is a very difficult thing. Probably the most difficult thing a Christian faces.

So, I give no credit to discredited conversion therapies to begin with.

 

[prplchknz]

here's my thoughts, it doesn't matter if you're christian or not. You can still have morals and values and still treat everyone with respect. and what you're saying is actually marginalizing people and a religion that does that. I want nothing to do with.

 

[Octavarium]

Stacey Dooley did a show on gay conversion therapy, and in it she interviewed a psychiatrist/psychologist who had this theory. It resonated with what I know to be true as well.

Wow! Stacey Dooley did a BBC 3 documentary about men who had had gay conversion therapy and were still struggling with their sexuality! And she interviewed a psychiatrist/psychologist who thinks homosexuality is caused by a lack of bonding with the same sex parent, and it resonated with what AphroditeGoneAwry knows to be true! Just look at that mountain of evidence guys. How could anyone possibly disagree with the view that homosexuality can be "cured", now that it has been definitively proven?

 

[digesthisickness]

I sense sarcasm.

 

[Totenkindly]

yes, the sarcasm is strong with this one.

Wow! Stacey Dooley did a BBC 3 documentary about men who had had gay conversion therapy and were still struggling with their sexuality! And she interviewed a psychiatrist/psychologist who thinks homosexuality is caused by a lack of bonding with the same sex parent, and it resonated with what AphroditeGoneAwry knows to be true! Just look at that mountain of evidence guys. How could anyone possibly disagree with the view that homosexuality can be "cured", now that it has been definitively proven?

In general, as someone who has interacted with and undergone various approaches to conversion therapy, I'd say that I understand why people buy into it (and it's explained in such a way as to fit in neatly with their views of God and the universe), but if you get outside of that framework and just evaluate it on merits + outcome, it fails miserably. In fact, the entire paradigm fails... which is why we're always hearing stories about people leaving Exodus and whatever other groups indulge in that kind of thing. Being ex-gay is almost used as an identity in itself and offer a kind of socially structured role to insert oneself into.

The "True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't go very far.

Damn it, I bought into another historical myth. Sorry about that.

Sigh. I can't seem to step anywhere with getting another historical myth on my shoes.

 

[Azure Flame]

Do you think some of those things I just listed are a little ridiculous though?

So for example - I wore a wool sweater yesterday. That apparently is a sin.

I assure you though it was only the finest quality wool.

Then there was the sushi I had the day before and the escargot that I had the month before that...

lol. That was before christ. At the time the bible also served as a guide for the jews. Don't eat pork because its disgusting and unclean. As far as I know, pork is still that way, we just pump it full of antibiotics and have technology to prevent us from dying.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, I see a lot of the OT rules as "separation/cleanliness" rules to (1) separate Israel tangibly from other cultures and prevent their assimilation, and (2) to prevent epidemics from wiping out the tribes.

Those issues are not relevant in today's western world, in general (although I guess there are sects that want to remain distinct from secular culture and will impose standards to accomplish that).

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Wow! Stacey Dooley did a BBC 3 documentary about men who had had gay conversion therapy and were still struggling with their sexuality! And she interviewed a psychiatrist/psychologist who thinks homosexuality is caused by a lack of bonding with the same sex parent, and it resonated with what AphroditeGoneAwry knows to be true! Just look at that mountain of evidence guys. How could anyone possibly disagree with the view that homosexuality can be "cured", now that it has been definitively proven?

Point is, being 'homosexual' is a choice, based on a dysfunctional childhood relationship. Heterosexual is, by nature, how we are made. There is one perfect Divine partner made just for you, and if you decide to pursue and apply your own willfulness in a sexually immoral way, being led by unmet needs, that is your choice! But it is a choice.

We become addicts to various things based on dysfunctional childhood issues as well. How do we deal with these? We eschew them, avoid them, go to support groups to get other struggling people to help us cope with them, and attend therapy to replace them. God can heal us from addictions and actually change us.

It is the same with being homosexual. Sure, you can keep this addiction to something unhealthy, but you won't be as healthy as you would otherwise be if you tried to overcome it, and asked God to help you heal. The fact that gay relationships are so fleeting is another indicator they are not rooted in a divine foundation.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Point is, being 'homosexual' is a choice, based on a dysfunctional childhood relationship. Heterosexual is, by nature, how we are made. There is one perfect Divine partner made just for you, and if you decide to pursue and apply your own willfulness in a sexually immoral way, being led by unmet needs, that is your choice! But it is a choice.

It is the same with being homosexual. Sure, you can keep this addiction to something unhealthy, but you won't be as healthy as you would otherwise be if you tried to overcome it, and asked God to help you heal. The fact that gay relationships are so fleeting is another indicator they are not rooted in a divine foundation.

I almost think you're trolling the forum, here. You truly believe this?

 

[Nicodemus]

Seriously, Aphrodite, you need to find other ways to cope with your mommy issues. This pseudo-christian propaganda is just too stupid.

I almost think you're trolling the forum, here. You truly believe this?

That Dawkins book was aptly named, The God Delusion.