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The GOD Thread~

Octavarium

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Yes. Pretty much. I think the Law proves itself over time. God is with those who love and worship Him, and He is against those who don't.

Assuming you are right, if someone doesn't love and worship God because they don't believe God exists, and they don't believe God exists because of an honest error in reasoning, would you still say God would be against them, assuming they were sincerely trying to be a good person?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Assuming you are right, if someone doesn't love and worship God because they don't believe God exists, and they don't believe God exists because of an honest error in reasoning, would you still say God would be against them, assuming they were sincerely trying to be a good person?

If they were truly ignorant of God, then God would see what is in their heart and judge them accordingly. Rarely does it work like that. Most of the time, humans have the capability to understand in the concept of God and believe in Him, or other gods.

I think modern Christians like to say that without knowing Jesus, people will go to Hell. I do not believe God is that rigid.

What He hates the most, is those who worship other gods or idols. What He loves the most is when we love Him and each other.
 

Octavarium

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If they were truly ignorant of God, then God would see what is in their heart and judge them accordingly. Rarely does it work like that. Most of the time, humans have the capability to understand in the concept of God and believe in Him, or other gods.

I think modern Christians like to say that without knowing Jesus, people will go to Hell. I do not believe God is that rigid.

What He hates the most, is those who worship other gods or idols. What He loves the most is when we love Him and each other.

I'm not talking about someone who is ignorant of God. I'm talking about someone who knows about Christianity, but honestly does not believe that God exists. Do you think God would be against such a person?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I'm not talking about someone who is ignorant of God. I'm talking about someone who knows about Christianity, but honestly does not believe that God exists. Do you think God would be against such a person?


I think He feels sad about everyone whom He has created who doesn't believe in Him, as their Creator. However, I think God is 'against' those who sin, yes.

If you had a child who knew about you but refused to acknowledge you, would that not make you sad?
 

Octavarium

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I think He feels sad about everyone whom He has created who doesn't believe in Him, as their Creator. However, I think God is 'against' those who sin, yes.

If you had a child who knew about you but refused to acknowledge you, would that not make you sad?

Refusing to acknowledge someone is not the same as believing that that person does not exist. To answer your question, if I had a child who refused to acknowledge me, however sad that might make me, I wouldn't have the right to demand that they love me. If they weren't acknowledging me because I had failed in my responsibilities as a parent, that serves me right. If I had done everything I could for them and they still refused to acknowledge me, I could try to reach out to them if I wanted a relationship, but ultimately you can't demand anyone's love and respect. But if not being loved by someone would make me sad, that just shows that I want/need that person's love and I am, to an extent, dependent on it. So if humans are capable of doing something that makes God sad, that implies that humans are capable of denying God something that he wants/needs, which is inconsistent with the idea of a god who is perfect and independent of his creation.
 

Zangetshumody

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This is the No true Scotsman Fallacy. It is a well known logical fallacy.

Would you not like to furnish me an explanation to go along with that retort? Please, like I'm a 5 year old. Because what you said makes me feel like I'm supposed to understand the logically impossible.
 

Totenkindly

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Would you not like to furnish me an explanation to go along with that retort? Please, like I'm a 5 year old. Because what you said makes me feel like I'm supposed to understand the logically impossible.

Google is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Basically, he's just keying in that in a discussion about what Christians do, you seemed to resort to a, "well, a REAL Christian does <this>" as a way of dodging potential criticisms of Christians and/or basically saying a "real christian" is how YOU have defined it versus someone else's potential definition, despite the fact that lots of self-professed Christians disagree on some doctrinal issues and perspectives.
 

Zangetshumody

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Oh, I would agree that other religions are often referring to God whether they realize it or not, but the ideal way of referring to God is with clear consciousness of His Being and His status as our LORD. Wouldn't you agree? Of course the number of names does not matter. This is a complex topic to post about.




God desires obedience over sacrifice or offerings. ~1 Samuel 15:22

Your place is to serve God and to please Him. He made you for a purpose. How can you know that purpose if you are cut off from Him? God's Law is not the laws of the universe. Those are the natural laws that the world must obey. We, as God's children, must obey His special Law for us. Otherwise, we are no better, no more special than animals--we are not the higher beings He created us to be--because we are functioning as any other creature would function, in obeisance to natural laws. It's 'natural law' to want to procreate with many sexual partners, but it's not God's Law.

In the old testament it also talks about there being 3 distinct Godly forms. Something to consider.

Gen_24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:

The new testament also gives more description to help full up the forms displayed in the above scripture:
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

When you marry those 3 scriptures you can really start to see what's what according to my faith.
 
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AphroditeGoneAwry

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Refusing to acknowledge someone is not the same as believing that that person does not exist. To answer your question, if I had a child who refused to acknowledge me, however sad that might make me, I wouldn't have the right to demand that they love me. If they weren't acknowledging me because I had failed in my responsibilities as a parent, that serves me right. If I had done everything I could for them and they still refused to acknowledge me, I could try to reach out to them if I wanted a relationship, but ultimately you can't demand anyone's love and respect. But if not being loved by someone would make me sad, that just shows that I want/need that person's love and I am, to an extent, dependent on it. So if humans are capable of doing something that makes God sad, that implies that humans are capable of denying God something that he wants/needs, which is inconsistent with the idea of a god who is perfect and independent of his creation.

Our Creator commands that we love Him, and that we love each other. He does not make us. He wants us to give our love freely to Him, and to each other.

He does not need anything from us. But He wants our love, and our loyalty, and our devotion.

In the old testament it also talks about there being 3 distinct Godly forms. Something to consider.

Gen_24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:

The new testament also gives more description to help full up the forms displayed in the above scripture:
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

When you marry those 3 scriptures you can really start to see what's what according to my faith.

The Genesis quote does not imply God is more than One entity.

I like your quotes. They imply the trinity as far as the God the Father's Holy Spirit, the Law from the Prophets, and Christ the Messiah.

As far as the NT goes, there are a few quotes that imply Jesus is God, but overall that notion was created by the early Christian church, and cemented at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. John was very close to Jesus, and was overtaken with his near God-like humanity, which is why his book is flavored that way.

There is really very little to be gained from believing in the false doctrine that Jesus is God, and very much to be lost.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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The Beginning of Knowledge

From Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived:

To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;

To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion-
A wise man will hear and increase in learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles,

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction. ~Proverbs 1:2-7



Interesting how the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the LORD (which is also how 'wisdom' can be defined). Today we would say the beginning of knowledge is understanding science.
 

Zangetshumody

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Google is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Basically, he's just keying in that in a discussion about what Christians do, you seemed to resort to a, "well, a REAL Christian does <this>" as a way of dodging potential criticisms of Christians and/or basically saying a "real christian" is how YOU have defined it versus someone else's potential definition, despite the fact that lots of self-professed Christians disagree on some doctrinal issues and perspectives.

Did I not provide a description that can be understood? I feel I don't need to make answers for any potential disagreements ma'am.
 
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Zangetshumody

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From Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived:

To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;

To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion-
A wise man will hear and increase in learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles,

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction. ~Proverbs 1:2-7



Interesting how the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the LORD (which is also how 'wisdom' can be defined). Today we would say the beginning of knowledge is understanding science.

Supporting scriptures:

1Co_1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co_1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co_3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

The Question is, who can actually explain science? because without an understandable explanation, you don't actually understand it (you just think you understand because you believe your understanding is the same as someone else that you believe in (but because the trust is unproven through a real reliance on your own heart of understanding, your being vain! [because you've been misled])).

bottom line, a theory that doesn't have practical application isn't faith, its theory, which is the prudence of the world that my scriptures refer to (and they will get you "taken" like with the Challenger tragedy of 1986)
i.e. Science is not understanding, because it's its premised on finding solution to a problem, and not improvement of a situation. Which is a different process entirely. If you try to solve the problem, you will just carry it with you into the future, the only cure is real understanding.
 
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AphroditeGoneAwry

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1Co_1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co_1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co_3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


Yes, that is the 'wise' according to worldly definitions.

It is man that thinks seeking knowledge is the holiest of endeavors. God tells us that the only knowledge we need is knowledge of Him.
 

Octavarium

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Our Creator commands that we love Him, and that we love each other. He does not make us. He wants us to give our love freely to Him, and to each other.

But is it really possible to love someone just because they have commanded you to do so? Do you think we can make ourselves feel love where there once was no feeling of love? Or is your idea of love more about doing than feeling? If so, would you say that if someone is doing things for someone else purely out of a sense of duty, but without feeling any affection for them, that can be called love? In other words, Do you think God commands us to have feelings of warmth/affection for him, or just to do things for him/in his name regardless of how we feel about him?

He does not need anything from us. But He wants our love, and our loyalty, and our devotion.

If it's something that God wants but doesn't need, that suggests that it is something God can do without. Even so, it suggests that God has desires that can only be satisfied by humans. So God cannot satisfy all of his desires independently; he depends on humans for that. Which leads on to the question, what does God gain from having us love him? Happiness? Does that mean it is within the power of humanity to make God happy or not happy?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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But is it really possible to love someone just because they have commanded you to do so? Do you think we can make ourselves feel love where there once was no feeling of love? Or is your idea of love more about doing than feeling? If so, would you say that if someone is doing things for someone else purely out of a sense of duty, but without feeling any affection for them, that can be called love? In other words, Do you think God commands us to have feelings of warmth/affection for him, or just to do things for him/in his name regardless of how we feel about him?

It is impossible to not feel love for God. He is in us, He made us, and He made us for His pleasure, and to love Him. If you don't feel love for God, it's because you aren't trying to know Him. It is impossible to know Him and not love Him.

When he commands us to love Him as the greatest commandment, it is for our own well-being, see. He can do without our love, but He doesn't want to.

In philosophy, it's taught that asking the right questions is what makes you wise. With God, loving Him is what makes you wise. It's not about the questions you ask, it's about seeking to know Him. And once you get to know Him, you cannot help but to love Him. I'd suggest reading some of the Bible. That is how people usually begin to fall in love with God, if you aren't already...


If it's something that God wants but doesn't need, that suggests that it is something God can do without. Even so, it suggests that God has desires that can only be satisfied by humans. So God cannot satisfy all of his desires independently; he depends on humans for that. Which leads on to the question, what does God gain from having us love him? Happiness? Does that mean it is within the power of humanity to make God happy or not happy?

He made us for His pleasure. I also believe He made us because He was somewhat lonely. We are the only one of His creation that is higher-minded enough to contemplate Him and know Him. What a great gift! He has everything He needs, but yes, there are some emotions that seem best fulfilled by the love that is created when two or more are joined together in God. And that must make God feel good too. If God is in all of us, then when we consciously allow Him to manifest, especially during worshiping Him, it creates a positive energy unlike anything else in the world or beyond. Like what we would call an exponential 'win'.
 

Zangetshumody

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Yes, that is the 'wise' according to worldly definitions.

It is man that thinks seeking knowledge is the holiest of endeavors. God tells us that the only knowledge we need is knowledge of Him.

Him being the son of God? or him being the Church Priest in your Church community (who is supposed to be the teacher)?

In John it says:

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

and as I explained before, the only thing that you can live through (is not believing IN other people), but reliance on a fully realized heart of understanding: and so, one must find the true Gospel, and which church actually has it. Its the gift of the brother and sister in the church that will heal.

Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
You can start to understand the way of righteousness like this: (as my priest said)

There can be no peace without joy and no joy without righteousness.

scripture: Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

So one can see clearly that he understands how to convey truth.
 
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Mole

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If the Nicene Creed was so important it would of been in the bible.

So, in one sentence you wipe out 2,000 years of Christianity.

Who do you think put the Bible together from a multitude of texts?

Western civilization is base on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment.

The Bible forms only part of our civilization.
 

Mole

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I fear this is where our dialogue must come to it's end, Mole, because I cannot possibly describe to you the colors and textures of the skies, and the seas I see in my dreams. This crushes me.

Don't be silly. Our poets, artists, musicians, choreographers, describe the colours and textures of the skies and the seas you see in your dreams. In fact it is likely you see the colours and textures of he skies and seas already depicted by our poets, artists, musicians, choreographers.

Perhaps you should think about paying them royalties.
 
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