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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #851
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    The ancient Hebrews had laws on slavery (which was allowed of the foreigners and nations surrounding the nation of Israel) and servants (the poor of the Hebrews). I am not a jewish expert, nor do I want to be, but basically this system functioned as their welfare system. It should not be confused with the American slavery we think of in the book Roots. Undoubtedly there have been cruel slave owners, but that is not God's intent.

    Slaves were not to be oppressed, and were not to be returned to their owners if they escaped. This is obviously a safeguard by God against abusing slaves.

    Servants were to serve 6 years and go free in the 7th, laden with good and assets. Unless they wanted to stay in their master's home, and then they could stay indefinitely with their master, once pierced in the ear. They were not to be ruled over with rigor. They did not have rights as far as I know, but their humanity was protected in God's Law.

    Jesus came along and preached love and compassion, making slavery obsolete. But it does not necessarily change being a servant, because a poor person needs help and there is nothing wrong with working for your keep. We all must do that. Working 6 days is actually commanded in the 4th commandment! Jesus preaches love and compassion, but that does not mean we have to give everything away, or not expect those among us who are poor to not work to earn their keep.

    God's intent regarding slavery is that the foreign people from nations around them, who were not children of God, were living sinful lives ignorant of God's Laws. It would be better to be a slave to a Hebrew God-fearing master than a citizen of a Godless country.

    Servants were possibly Hebrews or aliens who became sold by their families for money, or perhaps fell into such dire straits they sold themselves. Servants were commanded to be treated well, lived in the master's home, and had a good life.

    There are many laws commanding God's children to help their brethren if they become poor, to redeem their home and land for them, and to treat all, even strangers, as family. Being a servant was inevitable however, because there will always be poor people in every society.

    Today we just have a government that takes money from people and doles it out to the poor. The government decides who gets what and how much. Being a servant in the ancient Holy Land meant you lived in a nice house, worked 6 days, rested the 7th, had good food to eat, a family with you, and a decent master. Our poor live in their own little corner of squalor with little resources or help. Hmm. Which sounds better to you?


    In summation, I'm not sure about slavery, whether it is always wrong, or whether it can be incorporated into sound Christianity. Food for thought.
    Next step. Revisit usury laws and the year of Jubilee -- balancing reduced economic growth rates against freedom from the boom-and-bust cycle...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #852
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    If I were God, I would be so sick of people fawning over me, fixating on me, and getting down on their knees to kiss my ass, that I would shut the doors of heaven to everyone but casual atheists. So I think fans of hellfire and brimstone might be in for a little surprise when they walk up to the pearly gates. God is probably very lonely, and a rabid fan club that treats you like a magical genie doesn't make for good company.

    I think the whole assumption that God would need to be worshiped and served is a naive holdover from the days when people felt threatened and powerless before their gods and so attempted to appease them in various different ways. Fortunately we've moved from human sacrifice to singing cheesy songs on Sunday morning.

    If there is a God, he doesn't need you to tell him how great he is. He would probably prefer that you just sit down and have a nice conversation with him. Or maybe leave him alone for a change. He's the center of your universe, but you're not the center of his.

    On a side note, every time I hear someone make some kind of logical argument for the existence of God, I suddenly find myself being a decided atheist. People have been coming up with logical arguments for the existence of God ever since logic was invented, and at this point, it's evident that it just doesn't work. The arguments are full of holes, and they don't change anyone's mind. It would be a million times better to give someone some kind of evidence. There isn't a lot of clear evidence for the existence God, so people will continue to BS their way through these logical arguments that weaken their position.
    1) Go watch the movie Time Bandits. Makes the same point you do in a humorous vein.
    2) If God doesn't exist, on what grounds do your feelings about what you would do if you were God, have any bearing on His actual state of mind and heart?
    3) Try reading Jesus parable of the lost sheep and of the prodigal son.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  3. #853
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
    Ho! We have a lively one *rubs hands*

    If you're going to deny a patent provocation on your part, by all means go ahead, but I think you'd agree (maybe not publicly) that you're being a tad disingenuous there But by no means does someone need to have an impact, or be of any such gravitas, in accordance with the "strangers online" to render them a viable target to emotional taunting, no, it doesn't take much for someone on a forum to attempt such a jeering, I think you of all know this best

    I think I will stick to my guns, this isn't a rebellion by any means, in fact in my current life most of the people I hang around with are left-wing types, a little further than me to be sure, and so is the person in immediate authority over me in my situation, I'd have to say, adopting a similar ideology would be a poor attempt at rebellion. No, I grew up agreeing with one set of values, and after getting some education into me, I disagreed, doesn't get much deeper than that my friend. That being said, many of the conservatives I meet have a tendency to impose values, which is when they become a target of my scorn, other than that; I'm willing to live and let live. I couldn't really care less if you believed that evolution shouldn't be taught it schools, or if you're a pro-life fundy, just as long as you don't intend to impose it on others who actually value an education, and freedom

    And no, most people I am friends with happen to be of the fallibilist variety, and will admit when their value system or philosophies have been discredited beyond denial. (Also, as I just said, I don't get provoked by many nowadays, or recently at all really), but that's a solid attempt at a somewhat-worth-while analysis! I'll give you that Also, what surrounding community? I'm sorry but there's a reason why these ideals have been rejected by a lot of people who can be fucked researching anything! There's a reason why religiosity is inversely proportionate to education, and by extension wealth. Jesus Christ man! You're struggling to make even a semblance of a point! Also, do not mistake me for an "intellectual" of any kind, I'm just a guy having fun with other people across the internet, don't worry, I don't really take much of this seriously at all

    I "bait" people in passing, what I really enjoy is a solid debate, a good argument. That's more enjoyable than most things I find, if you know where I could find one, please let me know

    If you think I'm threatened, or have closeted doubts, than I'm afraid you'd be mistaken... Not much of this could threaten anyone of even a somewhat average intellect I'm afraid, it's all too fantastical for the 21st century, but don't worry, I'm sure there will always be a primal part of our ever-evolving brain that will keep the outmoded ideologies of antiquity alive But don't worry! Loneliness isn't much of a worry for me, as I'm sure you can imagine, even if I did have a short supply of friends! But you'll find that there are many people that tend to agree, and not take said values or systems of thoughts very seriously But don't worry, I understand your wish to put me on the defensive! It's a clever trick on power dynamics, I've always loved watching people do it in conversation, makes for even more entertainment! Boy, you're really a gold mind aren't you
    You obviously are not a deep thinker if you use hackneyed cliches such as "all too fantastical for the 21st century": there are a number of unfounded assumptions implicit in that statement.
    As far as teh intellect goes, St. Paul was bragging about the fact that God did not choose the wise, as far back as the 1st century. Nice try though.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  4. #854
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Moved some posts to Off-Topic Posts.
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  5. #855
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    You obviously are not a deep thinker if you use hackneyed cliches such as "all too fantastical for the 21st century": there are a number of unfounded assumptions implicit in that statement.
    As far as teh intellect goes, St. Paul was bragging about the fact that God did not choose the wise, as far back as the 1st century. Nice try though.
    Of course He didn't. He was too smart for that. Or at least he learned his lesson back in the Garden of Eden.

    I wish all mindless idiots could be so readily brainwashed into doing things that are actually useful.

    (Rats - it's an Onion article. I thought you were onto something for a minute.)
    Last edited by Coriolis; 01-17-2015 at 06:43 PM.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I am finding that I have a problem with missionaries seeking to be supported by others. I sort of think if you are supposed to be a missionary, then you will find your room and board, not need it given to you as a check by someone who makes a paycheck.

    Indeed, Jesus said:

    Provide no currency in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. ~Matthew 10:9-10

    So a missionary who pays for everything (as they do with YWAM) is not really doing what Jesus commanded here. It 'should' be that if you work, you are kept and fed by those you are working for. In this way, you know you are wanted there. If you are not wanted there, and no one will feed you, then it is obviously not God's will and you should leave that place:

    And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. ~Matthew 10:14


    So, yeah, I don't believe in missionaries PUSHING themselves on people. Being accepted in is one thing, but forcing themselves in, or paying (bribing) to be there is not holy.
    You might also consider St. Paul to the Thessalonians

    "Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you."
    1 Thessalonians 2:9

    "7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, 8nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you"
    2 Thessalonians 3:7-8 (although 9 claims they have a right to it, see also 1 Corinthians 9:9-11...)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #857
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Believe in something ridiculously untrue and enforces it on others,
    Gets criticized for it,
    Does some good community service and accuse the people who initially criticized you for criticizing you though they criticized you for something completely different.

    I genuinely don't get your game plan.
    .

  8. #858
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Shalom Shabbat!

    Did a very small Bible study this morning in Genesis Chapter 12. God commands Abram to go out from Haran, to leave his land, his people, and his father's house, and go to a land that God will show him. God will bless him and make a nation great to him; and his name would be great and he would be a blessing. And God would bless those who bless him, and despise those who curse him. (that last bit reminds me of the 2nd Commandment).

    Jesus also said that his family were those who do the will of the Father.

    The Holy Land,where Abram ended up being blessed, was bordered by the Red Sea and the Jordan, basically. I believe these water boundaries are why God proscribes the wearing of tassels on garments bordered by blue at the edges, to remind men that they must stay within the boundary God has delineated for them. Before Jesus, this being the Holy Land. After Jesus, this being where God sends you.

    It further occurred to me that every time God's people ventured from the Holy Land either to the north (to Haran to obtain family member for marriage) or to the south for wealth or food, they landed in trouble and captivity; always necessitating a return, led by God, back to the Holy Land, and freedom.

    Furthermore, Abram's dabble into polygamy ended up causing the birth of a nation of hatred, who to this day are our number one enemies. Isaac had just one wife. And Jacob's lust for Rebekah caused him to be doubly married, which caused horrible problems amongst his children, and led to his people being slaves in Egypt. I am feeling like God, while not prohibiting multiple marriage, definitely does not encourage it. Besides those Patriarchs, Adam, Noah, and Job, some of the most holy men in the Bible, were singly married. Moses had two wives, but only one at each time. Jesus had no wife, but He was more God than man, so that makes sense.

    I guess what I'm coming to is an understanding that polygyny (polyamory) is definitely not ideal from a God perspective.

    Also, where God leads us, we need to stay! And trust He will provide for us. Until He Himself tells us to move. For if God is not in it, it will fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    You might also consider St. Paul to the Thessalonians

    "Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you."
    1 Thessalonians 2:9

    "7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, 8nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you"
    2 Thessalonians 3:7-8 (although 9 claims they have a right to it, see also 1 Corinthians 9:9-11...)
    Do you think he means working, as in making-a-living type working, or spreading the Gospel type working? I am interpreting it to mean they worked in labor somehow. Which is also the 4th commandment: "Thou shalt work 6 days, and rest the 7th". It does not say rest 7 days, or preach the Gospel 7 days and consider it your work.

    I see these missionaries in my church and local area (huge YWAM base) and I love them as people, but for some reason, the fact that they only function with handouts bothers me immensely. Especially seeing the men not working or laboring when they are able-bodied men! Who says you can't preach the Gospel at your place of work, wherever in the world that might be? It can also border on child abuse when there is not enough actual money for food or clothing for the children. Plus, they live off the government sometimes.

    They (the missionaries) seem to believe that the need to keep themselves free to preach whenever God calls them to do so. But God has already told men they will need to labor hard (in Genesis, with the Curse), and work 6 days in the 4th Commandment. So if God wants men to be missionaries, it will be in the context of their work. Women are to raise children and work as women work. So if God wants them to be missionaries, it will be within that context. Creating your own work-free missionary world where you are funded by credit cards and people who DO work, seems unGodly to me. What are we modeling when we do this? That Christians need handouts to do what they do?

    God has already told us in Samuel that obedience is better than sacrifice, so to not work is to not obey Him, no matter how much missionaries might be 'sacrificing' themselves and their families to spread the Gospel.
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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Exactly how do Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy differ from Jesus? I can't vouch for the Tooth Fairy, but there was a historical St Nicholas, just as there seems to have been a historical Jesus.
    yup my church growing up put on a st.nicholas play on dec 6 and collects donations for MIFA. december 6 is his feast day. This believe it or not actually explains it well and concisely just ignore that it's to sale chocolates

    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Believe in something ridiculously untrue and enforces it on others,
    Gets criticized for it,
    Does some good community service and accuse the people who initially criticized you for criticizing you though they criticized you for something completely different.

    I genuinely don't get your game plan.
    And you never will. I hope that you live a happy and useful life regardless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Of course He didn't. He was too smart for that. Or at least he learned his lesson back in the Garden of Eden.


    I wish all mindless idiots could be so readily brainwashed into doing things that are actually useful.

    (Rats - it's an Onion article. I thought you were onto something for a minute.)

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