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Thread: The GOD Thread~

  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Beautiful. We both walk in two worlds.
    Nights and Days.
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  2. #682
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    There are many instances in which ID breaks down, including flaws and redundancies. What has been observed in nature is mutation which rither grants a survival penalty, a survival advantage, or does not give an advantage. Those mutations which provide an advantage will permeate the population and slowly build on each other. Some genes will make some creatures unable to breed with some other creatures, but eligible to breed with some other creatures. The species will begin to split. If one species is wildly successful, it may push another species to extinction.
    A significant problem of intelligent design is that no one can explain exactly how it works, at least not without invoking a supreme being who just "does things". It has not been demonstrated to have any predictive value, and is not falsifiable. This makes it as valid as any other religious theory (i.e. belief), but not valid as a scientific hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Natural selection is a form of intelligence if one considers that order is intelligent by its very nature, meaning that order implies a pattern, and any pattern or system is clearly derived from another system, and so on, on to infinity.

    But chaos is actually a euphemism for limitation, or the opposite ofa euphemism which I can't remember right now, but basically there is no such thing as chaos outside of our humanity. Chaos is the limitation of our ability to perceive order which is always there by induction since we have continuously discovered order behind every assumed chaotic event. In other words chaos is even intelligent.
    I disagree that order is intelligent by nature, or that there is no chaos outside humanity. Just consider the weather as an example of chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I think what I'm thinking of is more of my own self derived view of intelligent design. I've heard of Thomas Aquinas arguing on behalf of his own views, but mine come from the experience of noticing patterns which seem to be constructions. I would ask what your spiritual, personal, outlook is but that might be somewhat rude so forgive me if it is. Thank you.
    I find it hard to maintain any spiritual beliefs that are inconsistent with scientific understanding of the world. I do have beliefs which (by definition) cannot be proven, but should they ever be disproven, I would need to reconsider them. My view of God, or the creator, is of a being who not so much does as simply is. He/she does not make things, or deliberately guide or intervene in the development of things and events, but his/her very being is necessary for everything that exists to exist. If this being stopped existing, so would everything else. I suppose this thought is related to pantheism on some level, in seeing God in everything, but God is more than the sum total of everything. There is more than the physical world, and human/animal consciousness.

    This probably sounds vague. I can "see" it much better than I can explain it. Feel free to ask if you have more specific questions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #683
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    Default Psychology and Superstition

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Natural selection is a form of intelligence if one considers that order is intelligent by its very nature, meaning that order implies a pattern, and any pattern or system is clearly derived from another system, and so on, on to infinity.

    But chaos is actually a euphemism for limitation, or the opposite ofa euphemism which I can't remember right now, but basically there is no such thing as chaos outside of our humanity. Chaos is the limitation of our ability to perceive order which is always there by induction since we have continuously discovered order behind every assumed chaotic event. In other words chaos is even intelligent.

    As for the common argument of intelligent design - I Don't know it...this is my own idea.
    These are very nice sentiments but how do they square with reality?

    For instance, as far as we know, intelligence is limited to the frontal cortex of homo sapiens. So no frontal cortex, no intelligence.

    Of course we project our intelligence onto animals and inanimate objects. This is a very old religion called Animism.

    If Animism was real rather than imaginary, science would be impossible. But look around you and see that science permeates every part of our life.

    In the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries superstition, including Animism, was replaced by evidence and reason.

    So an interesting psychological question is why is superstition popular on this site, from astrology, to Animism, to mbti?

  4. #684
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    These are very nice sentiments but how do they square with reality?

    For instance, as far as we know, intelligence is limited to the frontal cortex of homo sapiens. So no frontal cortex, no intelligence.

    Of course we project our intelligence onto animals and inanimate objects. This is a very old religion called Animism.

    If Animism was real rather than imaginary, science would be impossible. But look around you and see that science permeates every part of our life.

    In the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries superstition, including Animism, was replaced by evidence and reason.

    So an interesting psychological question is why is superstition popular on this site, from astrology, to Animism, to mbti?

    Thank you!

    Well can't argue with that except to ask what if people didn't engage in animism and astrology. Would we still have evolved the way we did considering that we did things like animism for 1000's of years? Would that single variable alter the entire system of evolution by chaos theory and cause us to actually be less intelligent? If so, if that question can be answered with certainty then we can determine more about this matter...otherwise...there's no way I could even argue.
    @Coriolis

    thanks, I certainly will. Appreciate it. I just watched a video by Dr. Mike on how primary intuitive see and receive more than they could explain so I understand what you mean by not being able to verbalize it. It's because your antenna receives just way too much.

    But one thing I might say about intelligence is do you think it could be something separate from us? Archetypal perhaps that could manifest in anything given the right conditions or do you think it's intrinsic to the humanoid.

    Note: I'm not trying to argue at all really. I'm just trying to probe your minds and see what you both think regarding intelligence being intrinsic to us because you both seem like you work in the field of science. I was good at science in high-school (my best subject) but I didn't keep up with it so I can only speak with my knowledge of math up to stats, calculus, etc.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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  5. #685
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    But one thing I might say about intelligence is do you think it could be something separate from us? Archetypal perhaps that could manifest in anything given the right conditions or do you think it's intrinsic to the humanoid.
    I do not think intelligence is intrinsic to humanoids. Animals have intelligence. Anyone with a dog can tell you that. They don't have the same intelligence as a human, but then dogs are not human. Intelligence is not monolithic, meaning exactly the same wherever it is found. I have read the same about emotion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #686
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I do not think intelligence is intrinsic to humanoids. Animals have intelligence. Anyone with a dog can tell you that. They don't have the same intelligence as a human, but then dogs are not human. Intelligence is not monolithic, meaning exactly the same wherever it is found. I have read the same about emotion.
    Last question in case you're busy, I don't want to be a pest.

    But do you think that as the brain evolves in becomes some sort of antenna that picks up ideas from an abstract realm? I know many of the old alchemists who are actually considered the founders of science had such notions and it seems true. For example, a perfect circle must exist as an idea right? We use it to perform calculations and operations but I was always amazed in science class when the teacher repeatedly told us there was no such thing as a perfect circle in a "physical reality." I couldn't get my head around it at the time, I was mostly TE, but as my NI started forming I noticed that maybe, somewhere enmeshed between the space of our atoms, is a thought space which flows like a stream, and the brain, as it evolves, reaches in for ideas.

    I'm not the best with metaphors and analogies but that's the best I could do.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  7. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Last question in case you're busy, I don't want to be a pest.

    But do you think that as the brain evolves in becomes some sort of antenna that picks up ideas from an abstract realm? I know many of the old alchemists who are actually considered the founders of science had such notions and it seems true. For example, a perfect circle must exist as an idea right? We use it to perform calculations and operations but I was always amazed in science class when the teacher repeatedly told us there was no such thing as a perfect circle in a "physical reality." I couldn't get my head around it at the time, I was mostly TE, but as my NI started forming I noticed that maybe, somewhere enmeshed between the space of our atoms, is a thought space which flows like a stream, and the brain, as it evolves, reaches in for ideas.

    I'm not the best with metaphors and analogies but that's the best I could do.
    Asymptotes bro, asymptotes.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.
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  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Last question in case you're busy, I don't want to be a pest.

    But do you think that as the brain evolves in becomes some sort of antenna that picks up ideas from an abstract realm? I know many of the old alchemists who are actually considered the founders of science had such notions and it seems true. For example, a perfect circle must exist as an idea right? We use it to perform calculations and operations but I was always amazed in science class when the teacher repeatedly told us there was no such thing as a perfect circle in a "physical reality." I couldn't get my head around it at the time, I was mostly TE, but as my NI started forming I noticed that maybe, somewhere enmeshed between the space of our atoms, is a thought space which flows like a stream, and the brain, as it evolves, reaches in for ideas.

    I'm not the best with metaphors and analogies but that's the best I could do.
    During the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries we replaced the superstition of Alchemy with Chemistry based on evidence and reason. And we replaced the superstition of Astrology with Astronomy based on evidence and reason. And we replaced the superstition of Creationism with Natural Selection based on evidence and reason. And although we would never guess on this site, the superstition of mbti has been replaced by Psychometrics based on evidence and reason.

    What needs explaining is why superstition retains such a hold on us.
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  9. #689
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    During the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries we replaced the superstition of Alchemy with Chemistry based on evidence and reason. And we replaced the superstition of Astrology with Astronomy based on evidence and reason. And we replaced the superstition of Creationism with Natural Selection based on evidence and reason. And although we would never guess on this site, the superstition of mbti has been replaced by Psychometrics based on evidence and reason.

    What needs explaining is why superstition retains such a hold on us.
    Good points. Do you think, though, that maybe any belief we have will always have a superstitious component that is simply reduced towards 0 over time but never fully eliminated? Do you think maybe this superstition gives the superstitious person an emotional charge which catalyzes progress? Did alchemy, for instance, speed up the development of science? It was the crystalis of the scientific method.

    For example, sometimes when I'm running I imagine that I'm a bushman hunting evil demon spirits. This gives me a sort of charge and then I run better. Or when I listen to music and day dream while I do a task, it makes it better for me. I know it's not real, but some beliefs I have, faith based, may be considered superstitious and I know this yet still believing in them causes a chemical change in me that catalyzes my achievement towards goals.

    I'm rambling but trying to make a point I guess.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  10. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Last question in case you're busy, I don't want to be a pest.

    But do you think that as the brain evolves in becomes some sort of antenna that picks up ideas from an abstract realm? I know many of the old alchemists who are actually considered the founders of science had such notions and it seems true. For example, a perfect circle must exist as an idea right? We use it to perform calculations and operations but I was always amazed in science class when the teacher repeatedly told us there was no such thing as a perfect circle in a "physical reality." I couldn't get my head around it at the time, I was mostly TE, but as my NI started forming I noticed that maybe, somewhere enmeshed between the space of our atoms, is a thought space which flows like a stream, and the brain, as it evolves, reaches in for ideas.

    I'm not the best with metaphors and analogies but that's the best I could do.
    The realm of perfect forms originated with Socrates.
    I believe it exists as poetry, only.
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    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan
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